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Why do we have something instead of nothing at all?

Amadeus said:
In the end, no, there is not much difference in being an atheist or a Christian. You have a slightly different world view, I guess, if you believe in a higher power.
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Why would an atheist believe in a higher power? A-theist, the clue is in the word.
 
tosca1 said:
Why is the universe here? Why is the earth here? Why are we here?

Why not nothing?


How do you answer that?
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Eternal, as of yet unanswerable questions. As for me personally, I've stopped asking myself these questions, or more to the point, I've stopped caring about why. Life is pretty cool and interesting as it is, although I wish we lived twice as long as we do. I don't need to know why anymore. No matter where you look for the answers you end up with more questions than you started with. Religion and philosophy don't even try to answer these questions and science can only go so far. No matter what, you're stuck with the eternal conundrum: where did it ALL come from, including the hypothetical creator? And as spud said, if you just assume that something can be eternal, why does it have to be the creator? Why can't it be the universe itself?
 
zyzygy said:
What is the difference?
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One is a person, one is a force of nature. It's the difference between your boss at work and gravity.

The Buddhist believes in karma, a higher power that is not a person or god in any way. One wouldn't worship karma anymore than one would worship evolution.
 
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Paschendale said:
You don't have to eliminate it. There's just no reason to conclude in favor of a creator god. No moreso than concluding that Santa Claus exists or Amon-Ra or Harry Potter.
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Of course there is definite reason to support the existence, and creation by God. You're simply just not getting it. One thing that's definite though, just because some are having a difficult time wrapping their heads around the evidence(s) does not mean everyone is, too.



Here we go again - it never fails with you guys - bringing up Santa Claus and other fictional characters.

Let me ask you....how many scientists, philosophers have scrutinized Harry Potter Books and books about Amon Ra to base scientific hypotheses, and/or to debate their existence? That alone should be the disco psychedelic light that sufficiently illuminates they're not appropriate comparisons at all.

If you can't even connect those simple dots in my question, to make the light bulb lit up -why would anyone even take your opinion seriously???

No, really....that's not meant as an insult, but just the stating of imperical evidences based on your own responses. Plus, everyone doing comparison of the the same old thing (Santa Claus, pink unicorns, Harry Potter), are not even mouthing an original irrational thought! :lol:


One thing I do know, they did a lot of interviews with Harry Potter's CREATOR (the author). Their questions vary from how she conceived the idea for Potter, to how it's been DESIGNED to become the franchise that it is now.
Now, that would be the sensible comparison to make with the universe and its creation (if your aim is to make comparisons), except that the DESIGNER of the universe is not available for a sit-down interview.

But the way you present your comparison is - ironically - what reveals the very one thing we are saying in other threads: atheists are irrational in their belief. Just look at the way you try to reason!




The universe functions perfectly without outside interference. There is just no need for a god to make it work. We have no need for that hypothesis.
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So you'll just have to understand why statements like that.....that came from someone who gave statements like the ones you gave above (Harry Potter and company)....are simply...."eye-rollers." :roll:
 
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Arcana XV said:
Eternal, as of yet unanswerable questions. As for me personally, I've stopped asking myself these questions, or more to the point, I've stopped caring about why. Life is pretty cool and interesting as it is, although I wish we lived twice as long as we do. I don't need to know why anymore. No matter where you look for the answers you end up with more questions than you started with. Religion and philosophy don't even try to answer these questions and science can only go so far. No matter what, you're stuck with the eternal conundrum: where did it ALL come from, including the hypothetical creator? And as spud said, if you just assume that something can be eternal, why does it have to be the creator? Why can't it be the universe itself?
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I hear you.


As to the assumption of the eternal universe, science says it's not eternal.


Plus...

It is much harder to believe the universe is eternal when everything we see around us - and even in the heavens - has a beginning and an end. That is the obvious pattern....or the "motif."
 
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tosca1 said:
Plus...

It is much harder to believe the universe is eternal when everything we see around us - and even in the heavens - has a beginning and an end. That is the obvious pattern....or the "motif."
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Which is why the "eternal" creator idea makes no sense either. Where did it/she/he/them come from? Nothing?
 
My problem with the religious explanation for creation is that it removes choice from the equation. We either serve God or we go to Hell. Everything leads up to that conclusion. God has a plan for us, and if we don't follow that plan we are in deep trouble. It is also an ego-driven explanation, and not a humble one.

If the universe has no real purpose, and we are a by-product of creation (whatever its origin), then we are truly free.
 
BrewerBob said:
Such common sense served us well during our evolutionary processed. It has proven to be very misleading, however, when it comes to complex science like relativity and quantum theory. I doubt it serves any use in determining how the universe came to be.
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Sure it's been off. But it was from our "common sense" that we realized we needed relativity and quantum, and then we used common sense to piece the data together into what we know as relativity and quantum. Reason is still used in those fields, even if the conclusions are counter-intuitive.

Similarly, we can't use reason to say how things are created, but we can say that they aren't the source of their own existence. I don't even claim God is the source of his own existence because the argument is circular. "God caused God's existence" means that before God existed he was able to cause things, and that's absurd. "Matter caused matter's existence" is equally absurd for the exact same reasoning. You'd have to say "Matter needs no cause for existing", but ascribing that kind of quality to matter is a bit far-fetched.
 
spud_meister said:
Rationally, you cannot support an eternal being if everything must have a cause. You're simply pushing the question back to what caused the creator, and if a creator can be eternal, why can't the universe?
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I don't think everything needs a cause for existence. Existence itself doesn't need a cause. How can existence become existing prior to existence existing (lol at the syntax).
 
Amadeus said:
My problem with the religious explanation for creation is that it removes choice from the equation. We either serve God or we go to Hell. Everything leads up to that conclusion. God has a plan for us, and if we don't follow that plan we are in deep trouble. It is also an ego-driven explanation, and not a humble one.

If the universe has no real purpose, and we are a by-product of creation (whatever its origin), then we are truly free.
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Who says hell isn't the gift from God that removes him from the picture? Why wouldn't hell be locked from the inside to keep out God?

If you assume my position about death, we cease existing as persons. Only with God do we exist again. Yet, Christianity claims that the righteous and the unrighteous come back to life, one to live with God and the other not to live with God. The one with God is the better option, of course, and so comparatively the other option sucks. A lot. Yet, choosing belief in God for selfish means isn't really belief. I'd encourage honesty rather than some attempt at a transaction. My guess is that hell is simply this incomplete, corrupted world, never ending.
 
tosca1 said:
Here we go again - it never fails with you guys - bringing up Santa Claus and other fictional characters.
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I just wanted to point out that Santa was a real person.
 
tosca1 said:
Of course there is definite reason to support the existence, and creation by God. You're simply just not getting it. One thing that's definite though, just because some are having a difficult time wrapping their heads around the evidence(s) does not mean everyone is, too.
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And again you provide no such evidence.

Here we go again - it never fails with you guys - bringing up Santa Claus and other fictional characters.
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If we lived in ancient Egypt and you said that Amon Ra was fictional, you'd probably be killed for that. Dismissing other people's faiths as fictional and irrelevant while claiming that yours is true and special is exceedingly arrogant. Please provide some evidence to support your religious ideas being true and those of another culture being false.

Let me ask you....how many scientists, philosophers have scrutinized Harry Potter Books and books about Amon Ra to base scientific hypotheses, and/or to debate their existence? That alone should be the disco psychedelic light that sufficiently illuminates they're not appropriate comparisons at all.
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The main difference being that no one has really dedicated their lives to trying to convince people that Harry Potter is real. Thousands of years of Egyptian philosophy came from their beliefs about their gods, including Amon Ra. You do an excellent job of ethnocentrism ignoring a culture that has influenced so much of the world's history, including the history of your precious myths. Without Egypt, your faith might never have existed.

If you can't even connect those simple dots in my question, to make the light bulb lit up -why would anyone even take your opinion seriously???
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Which question? I mostly see a lot of ranting and ignorance about history.

No, really....that's not meant as an insult, but just the stating of imperical evidences based on your own responses. Plus, everyone doing comparison of the the same old thing (Santa Claus, pink unicorns, Harry Potter), are not even mouthing an original irrational thought! :lol:

One thing I do know, they did a lot of interviews with Harry Potter's CREATOR (the author). Their questions vary from how she conceived the idea for Potter, to how it's been DESIGNED to become the franchise that it is now.
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And yet you still can't demonstrate the difference between your god and those characters. You just say they're different without showing how. Yes, we certainly have been able to speak with JK Rowling and know that she wrote those books. What's to say she wasn't divinely influenced by the spirit of Harry to chronicle his true life adventures? But if obvious works of fiction don't satisfy you, what about obviously false attempts at non-fiction? Elvis sighters claim that their accounts are true. Same with alien abduction victims. What's different about them and your religious experiences?

Now, that would be the sensible comparison to make with the universe and its creation (if your aim is to make comparisons), except that the DESIGNER of the universe is not available for a sit-down interview.
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The universe has no designer. It's quite apparent that this is the case the more we learn about the universe. As you seem to know very little about it, you roll your eyes when confronted with information that confuses you.
 
It is not known. We might not ever know. It might not be knowable. There might not be a reason at all. Reality may simply be. For no reason.

But the obvious implication of your question - that this is only an issue for atheists because the existence of God somehow solves it - is just not so. Why is there God instead of nothing at all? In fact, this applies to any explanation to the question. Why is there something rather than nothing? Because X. Why X? What is the reason for X? Because Y. Why Y? What is the reason for Y? Ad infinitum.
 
Jerry said:
One is a person, one is a force of nature. It's the difference between your boss at work and gravity.

The Buddhist believes in karma, a higher power that is not a person or god in any way. One wouldn't worship karma anymore than one would worship evolution.
Click to expand...

There is no proof that karma exists. I don't think that the religious see their gods are persons, but I may be wrong. I've never believed in a god.
 
zyzygy said:
There is no proof that karma exists.
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Karma is an excersize in personal conscience. Maybe you don't have a conscience, but you shouldn't claim there is no proof conscience exists.

In Buddhism a god is an aspect of yourself, therefore the gods only exist in so far as you exist; a given god only exists in so far as that aspect of yourself exists. In any case, belief of any kind, of any god, is not required.
 
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Jerry said:
Karma is an excersize in personal conscience. Maybe you don't have a conscience, but you shouldn't claim there is no proof conscience exists.

In Buddhism a god is an aspect of yourself, therefore the gods only exist in so far as you exist; a given god only exists in so far as that aspect of yourself exists. In any case, belief of any kind, of any god, is not required.
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Your problem is that 'conscience exists' =/= 'karma'.
 
Jerry said:
Karma is an excersize in personal conscience. Maybe you don't have a conscience, but you shouldn't claim there is no proof conscience exists.
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You don't appear to know what karma is.
 
Jerry said:
I didnt say karma [is] conscience. I said Karma is an excersize in personal conscience
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Do you have any proof that reincarnation exists? No reincarnation, no karma.
 
Jerry said:
I was just thinking the same about you.
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How is this personal conscience carried on from one life to the next? Do you believe in reincarnation?
 
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