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No bad dog just bad owners logic apply to humans/parents?

R

RBIII

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If you believe there are no bad dogs just bad owners must you also believe there are no bad people just bad parents? Or is the dog/owner relationship rational more of a generalization rather than a fact? I used to think the bad dog/ bad owner was a solid truth but just like people I suppose they could be born bad and no amount of " good owner" can change that. Thoughts?
 
RBIII said:
If you believe there are no bad dogs just bad owners must you also believe there are no bad people just bad parents? Or is the dog/owner relationship rational more of a generalization rather than a fact? I used to think the bad dog/ bad owner was a solid truth but just like people I suppose they could be born bad and no amount of " good owner" can change that. Thoughts?
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I believe in this. To an extent. You have to accept that there are more influences on your child's life (especially as they get older) than just you, while you're dog....not so much.

So a parent has a LOT of say on how their child will turn out, but things like friends, will also alter the variables quite a bit.

Dogs tend to have less outside influences on their behavior, so yes, no bad dogs, just bad owners.
 
RBIII said:
If you believe there are no bad dogs just bad owners must you also believe there are no bad people just bad parents? Or is the dog/owner relationship rational more of a generalization rather than a fact? I used to think the bad dog/ bad owner was a solid truth but just like people I suppose they could be born bad and no amount of " good owner" can change that. Thoughts?
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Dogs can be born "bad". It's rare but it happens. Dogs that are overbred (parents are siblings, parents are parent/child) can be born with disorders that make them unable to function normally. Dogs that are severely abused or neglected as puppies can carry emotional scars forever that prevent normal function.

The statement "There are no bad dogs, just bad owners" is a general one (of course there are exceptions!), and is actually quite accurate.

Children can also be born bad, and can also suffer from mistreatment, even from factors while still in utero. Children can also be negatively impacted by parental behaviors.

You really can't draw a clean comparison as I think you'd like to.
 
tres borrachos said:
Dogs can be born "bad". It's rare but it happens. Dogs that are overbred (parents are siblings, parents are parent/child) can be born with disorders that make them unable to function normally. Dogs that are severely abused or neglected as puppies can carry emotional scars forever that prevent normal function.

The statement "There are no bad dogs, just bad owners" is a general one (of course there are exceptions!), and is actually quite accurate.

Children can also be born bad, and can also suffer from mistreatment, even from factors while still in utero. Children can also be negatively impacted by parental behaviors.

You really can't draw a clean comparison as I think you'd like to.
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Yeah I figured that just thought it was an interesting comparison but it's not really quite apples to apples I suppose.
 
KevinKohler said:
I believe in this. To an extent. You have to accept that there are more influences on your child's life (especially as they get older) than just you, while you're dog....not so much.

So a parent has a LOT of say on how their child will turn out, but things like friends, will also alter the variables quite a bit.

Dogs tend to have less outside influences on their behavior, so yes, no bad dogs, just bad owners.
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We'll do you disagree with tres then?
 
RBIII said:
If you believe there are no bad dogs just bad owners must you also believe there are no bad people just bad parents? Or is the dog/owner relationship rational more of a generalization rather than a fact? I used to think the bad dog/ bad owner was a solid truth but just like people I suppose they could be born bad and no amount of " good owner" can change that. Thoughts?
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That's likely true. Though on some level there are just bad dogs. Not that an entire breed is bad, but individually there are dogs who are just assholes. Same with people. But I do think a lot of it is related to how one is brought up and disciplined.
 
RBIII said:
Yeah I figured that just thought it was an interesting comparison but it's not really quite apples to apples I suppose.
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It's a good discussion. Like I said, you can't make a clean comparison, but that doesn't mean nature versus nurture doesn't impact both species.
 
RBIII said:
We'll do you disagree with tres then?
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Well, obviously, if you do nothing but inbreed, or breed specifically for violence, or whatever, over a course of many generations, then yeah, modern understanding of genetics and evolution dictates that you will end up with a dog that is prone top those things.


But maybe that's what you wanted, resulting in that NOT being a bad dog?
 
KevinKohler said:
Well, obviously, if you do nothing but inbreed, or breed specifically for violence, or whatever, over a course of many generations, then yeah, modern understanding of genetics and evolution dictates that you will end up with a dog that is prone top those things.


But maybe that's what you wanted, resulting in that NOT being a bad dog?
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We'll no my initial post was referring to normal conception and upbringing. I was of the thought that all dogs were a product of how they were raised all other things equal but it seems to believe that one must also believe that people are a product of how they were raised all else equal and we all know there are plenty of cases where that's not true. I realize people are more complicated than dogs but maybe we've been giving dogs a free "sympathy" pass for too long lol...dog lover here but I'm just saying.
 
RBIII said:
We'll no my initial post was referring to normal conception and upbringing. I was of the thought that all dogs were a product of how they were raised all other things equal but it seems to believe that one must also believe that people are a product of how they were raised all else equal and we all know there are plenty of cases where that's not true. I realize people are more complicated than dogs but maybe we've been giving dogs a free "sympathy" pass for too long lol...dog lover here but I'm just saying.
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Well, genetics play a role, sure. But not NEARLY as much of one as NURTURE. Plenty of perfectly nice, perfectly well behaved "bully breed" dogs out there. And also to note, those rabid, "wild" dog packs out there? The ones you TRULY want to watch out for if you're ever out in the bush? Those are all MUTS. Mixed breed dogs.

9 times out of 10, all things being equal, NURTURE has a greater role on the outcome of behavior than NATURE.


And the same goes for humans.
 
RBIII said:
If you believe there are no bad dogs just bad owners must you also believe there are no bad people just bad parents? Or is the dog/owner relationship rational more of a generalization rather than a fact? I used to think the bad dog/ bad owner was a solid truth but just like people I suppose they could be born bad and no amount of " good owner" can change that. Thoughts?
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"there are no bad dogs, just bad owners" is not a statement of fact, It's a political catchphrase. It's highly unlikely to be true. What the facts show is that, just like humans, dogs do have personalities. Furthermore, aggressiveness is one of the factors of a dog's personality. Finally, it has been proven that dog's personalities, as with humans, are heavily influenced by genes. Given these facts, it's highly unlikely the idea that there are no bad dogs has a leg to stand on. There are aggressive dogs, and in many cases they were born predisposed to aggressiveness due to their genetic makeup.

The same applies to human beings. The tabulasa rasa theory has been long disproven. Human personality is heavily dependent on genes. Yes, upbringing greatly affects personality as well, but the idea of a blank slate where nurture is all that matters was disproven long ago.
 
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Most children will spend more time with teachers than with parents. So maybe it's no bad children, just bad teachers if the logic of the OP holds true.

Of course, the media - TV and Internet - most get kids focus - so we come around to does violence and bad behavior in the media cause bad behavior in children (and in adults?)
 
CrabCake said:
"there are no bad dogs, just bad owners" is not a statement of fact, It's a political catchphrase. It's highly unlikely to be true. What the facts show is that, just like humans, dogs do have personalities. Furthermore, aggressiveness is one of the factors of a dog's personality. Finally, it has been proven that dog's personalities, as with humans, are heavily influenced by genes. Given these facts, it's highly unlikely the idea that there are no bad dogs has a leg to stand on. There are aggressive dogs, and in many cases they were born predisposed to aggressiveness due to their genetic makeup.

The same applies to human beings. The tabulasa rasa theory has been long disproven. Human personality is heavily dependent on genes. Yes, upbringing greatly affects personality as well, but the idea of a blank slate where nurture is all that matters was disproven long ago.
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I'm curious about the genetic evidence for this, can you point me to it.
 
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