Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of Him

Watching "Killing Jesus" last the thought hit me Jesus is born and immediately innocent infants and children are killed because of it. So that sheds a whole new light on his life and the number of people that have been killed because of him. If he was being guided by God why then was he told to resist the laws knowing what was coming? How many people must die? Listen to the song "Blowing In The Wind". I am not religious but I am not an atheists and the reason I have not faith in any God is all are man made. The life and impact of Jesus is horrible to say the least. I can never justify his life as holy nor can I believe in the Christian concept of God not that it is any worse than other religions.
As for the timing of his arrival on earth who can say what would be a better time or worse time? Watching the show last night proved beyond any question we are even more savage to each other now than we were back then. That being said, is Jesus working, was his life futile and please do not respond with "The good will go to heaven after this life" type responses, we have all heard those before. His word was to love one another, etc. and that is simply not happening is it?

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

rhinefire said:

Watching "Killing Jesus" last the thought hit me Jesus is born and immediately innocent infants and children are killed because of it. So that sheds a whole new light on his life and the number of people that have been killed because of him. If he was being guided by God why then was he told to resist the laws knowing what was coming? How many people must die? Listen to the song "Blowing In The Wind". I am not religious but I am not an atheists and the reason I have not faith in any God is all are man made. The life and impact of Jesus is horrible to say the least. I can never justify his life as holy nor can I believe in the Christian concept of God not that it is any worse than other religions.
As for the timing of his arrival on earth who can say what would be a better time or worse time? Watching the show last night proved beyond any question we are even more savage to each other now than we were back then. That being said, is Jesus working, was his life futile and please do not respond with "The good will go to heaven after this life" type responses, we have all heard those before. His word was to love one another, etc. and that is simply not happening is it?

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Those kids were only a local thing about tribal dominance and the chieftain's legitimacy.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

rhinefire said:

Watching "Killing Jesus" last the thought hit me Jesus is born and immediately innocent infants and children are killed because of it. So that sheds a whole new light on his life and the number of people that have been killed because of him. If he was being guided by God why then was he told to resist the laws knowing what was coming? How many people must die? Listen to the song "Blowing In The Wind". I am not religious but I am not an atheists and the reason I have not faith in any God is all are man made. The life and impact of Jesus is horrible to say the least. I can never justify his life as holy nor can I believe in the Christian concept of God not that it is any worse than other religions.
As for the timing of his arrival on earth who can say what would be a better time or worse time? Watching the show last night proved beyond any question we are even more savage to each other now than we were back then. That being said, is Jesus working, was his life futile and please do not respond with "The good will go to heaven after this life" type responses, we have all heard those before. His word was to love one another, etc. and that is simply not happening is it?

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What I see is that you are making two (2) mistakes which come from the brainwashing of us all, as we must un-learn things first before we can see more clear.

First is that the Roman Empire in all of its life and territories was a horribly savage brutal and inhuman reality and it was never ever glamorous or enlightened.

The 2nd thing is that Jesus was just a powerful person but Jesus was not God, and all humans are children (sons and daughters) of the Father God.

I agree with the "Reply #2 from joG" in that murdering babies (or children) is what is done by the "tribal dominance and the chieftain's legitimacy", and we still today murder babies by the millions through abortions and other means as humanity is still violently barbaric today and ongoing.

Jesus brought a powerful message to the entire world - oh yes, but most people fail to understand the message of Christ.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

rhinefire said:

Watching "Killing Jesus" last the thought hit me Jesus is born and immediately innocent infants and children are killed because of it. So that sheds a whole new light on his life and the number of people that have been killed because of him. If he was being guided by God why then was he told to resist the laws knowing what was coming? How many people must die? Listen to the song "Blowing In The Wind". I am not religious but I am not an atheists and the reason I have not faith in any God is all are man made. The life and impact of Jesus is horrible to say the least. I can never justify his life as holy nor can I believe in the Christian concept of God not that it is any worse than other religions.

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I obviously haven't seen "Killing Jesus," so I'm uncertain of what you're referring to rhinefire when you mention infants and children ... but more over to the Point: Jesus isn't real. Sure, okay, there may have been a historical Jesus, but his "story" as it is described in the Gospels just didn't happen. There was no Sermon on the Mount, trial, crucifixion or resurrection. The story is a result of a evolved mythology, that took shape over the course of 60 years. It has little historical basis.

Of course, that sure doesn't stop us from discussing the New Testament narrative as a nonfiction story. In which case, what was this thing about infants and children?

rhinefire said:

As for the timing of his arrival on earth who can say what would be a better time or worse time? Watching the show last night proved beyond any question we are even more savage to each other now than we were back then. That being said, is Jesus working, was his life futile and please do not respond with "The good will go to heaven after this life" type responses, we have all heard those before. His word was to love one another, etc. and that is simply not happening is it?

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Are you kidding? The world is more at peace and kinder to one another right now than it has ever been in its history.

You don't believe me? One word: Cannibalism. Something that used to be very, very common and practiced by entire societies, but now rarely, if ever occurs.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

JP Cusick said:

Jesus brought a powerful message to the entire world - oh yes, but most people fail to understand the message of Christ.

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That he will condemn 4.8 billion non-Christians to eternal hell, unless they follow arbitrary rules and feel good tropes like 'Love one another'?

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

brothern said:

I obviously haven't seen "Killing Jesus," so I'm uncertain of what you're referring to rhinefire when you mention infants and children ... but more over to the Point: Jesus isn't real. Sure, okay, there may have been a historical Jesus, but his "story" as it is described in the Gospels just didn't happen. There was no Sermon on the Mount, trial, crucifixion or resurrection. The story is a result of a evolved mythology, that took shape over the course of 60 years. It has little historical basis.

Of course, that sure doesn't stop us from discussing the New Testament narrative as a nonfiction story. In which case, what was this thing about infants and children?


Are you kidding? The world is more at peace and kinder to one another right now than it has ever been in its history.

You don't believe me? One word: Cannibalism. Something that used to be very, very common and practiced by entire societies, but now rarely, if ever occurs.

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The thing about killing infants and children:

Herod Slaughters Infants
(Jeremiah 31:1-30)

16Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. 17Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,

18In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

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Herod was king at the time, and felt threatened by the newborn "king of the Jews", so, he ordered all of the children killed so that he could be sure Jesus was dead.

But, it didn't work, as we know now.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Dittohead not! said:

The thing about killing infants and children:

Herod was king at the time, and felt threatened by the newborn "king of the Jews", so, he ordered all of the children killed so that he could be sure Jesus was dead.

But, it didn't work, as we know now.

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But still that didn't actually happen, which rhinefire should feel consoled by. That was an extended metaphor between Jesus and Moses in Matthew.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

brothern said:

But still that didn't actually happen, which rhinefire should feel consoled by. That was an extended metaphor between Jesus and Moses in Matthew.

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Well, probably very little that was written down in the ancient manuscripts from which we get the modern Bible actually happened as the events were described.

But, human societies were pretty brutal back then.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Dittohead not! said:

Well, probably very little that was written down in the ancient manuscripts from which we get the modern Bible actually happened as the events were described.

But, human societies were pretty brutal back then.

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Yes, but this one even more so than most! Matthew paralleled Jesus and Moses to make a theological point. Obviously Moses was a fictional character as demonstrated by the complete lack of any archaeological, linguistic or recorded evidence of the Exodus. The story is littered with anachronisms and other historical inaccuracies. Regardless the story was existent in the Holy Texts and still believed to be true at the time of Matthew’s writing in 60-70AD, and therefore Matthew attempted to legitimize Jesus’ character/teachings by creating an extended parallel between him and Moses. It’s why the writer(s) of Matthew also manipulated Jesus’ genealogy by leaving out several generations. Jesus is the “new Moses.” It’s the whole basis of the Sermon on the Mount and the Old/New Covenant silliness.

The parallel: Moses/Jesus was born under Pharaoh/Herod, who were ruthless (gentile) dictators that ruled the Israelites and were killing the first-born sons because of their threat to their reigns. Moses/Jesus being associated with managers/baskets, were hidden by their mothers to escape the harm – for example, Matthew contends Mary and Joseph actually went and lived in Egypt (Mt 2:13-15). Anyway both Moses/Jesus end up in the wilderness, are tempted, do their respective symbolic baptisms (Red Sea/John the Baptist), before all ending up on a mountain delivering the commandments of God. Jesus is mirroring Moses’ life to give the character credibility.

Of course there is the belief that this actually is a fulfilled prophecy and therefore Christians have gone on to list the tens of similarities between Moses and Jesus, most of which are coincidental. The comparative lists can be found posted on the web. However the bigger point being, the main life arc and extended metaphor were created by the author(s) of Matthew for theological purposes, and thus it’s pretty darn obvious even before you ask Roman historians that the slaughter of Israelite male babies by Herod is completely fictional.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

brothern said:

That he will condemn 4.8 billion non-Christians to eternal hell, unless they follow arbitrary rules and feel good tropes like 'Love one another'?

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I tried to point this out to the OP that the lies (un-truths) told about Jesus and the Gospels must be un-LEARNED.

There is no such place as Hell, and that "Hell" is just a wrong and ignorant interpretation which does not belong there.

The word "hell" in old English simply means a hole in the ground as like to bury dead bodies, or they use to store potatoes in a hole in the ground called as a hell.

The concept of the under-world came from the old Greek religion concerning their Hades, see link HERE.

Christianity has a much different message from that message given by Jesus Christ - FYI.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

JP Cusick said:

I tried to point this out to the OP that the lies (un-truths) told about Jesus and the Gospels must be un-LEARNED.

There is no such place as Hell, and that "Hell" is just a wrong and ignorant interpretation which does not belong there.

The word "hell" in old English simply means a hole in the ground as like to bury dead bodies, or they use to store potatoes in a hole in the ground called as a hell.

The concept of the under-world came from the old Greek religion concerning their Hades, see link HERE.

Christianity has a much different message from that message given by Jesus Christ - FYI.

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Online Etymology Dictionary

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

The "historicity" of The massacre of the Innocents won't stand up to scrutiny.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

zyzygy said:

Online Etymology Dictionary

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Yes, that link gives the meaning.

A hole in the ground covered up as in a grave or cemetery, or as a tomb.


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Chagos said:

The "historicity" of The massacre of the Innocents won't stand up to scrutiny.

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I would hope that slaughter was not true or not real and that maybe it never happened.

We can hope for the best.

The complication is that the old Romans were seriously barbaric and inhumanly cruel, so killing the children of another race and Country was not beneath the Romans of those times.

So even if some how the record is not accurate - then there remains a sad reality that the people of those times could have and would have done such atrocities at their own whims.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

JP Cusick said:

Yes, that link gives the meaning.

A hole in the ground covered up as in a grave or cemetery, or as a tomb.


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I would hope that slaughter was not true or not real and that maybe it never happened.

We can hope for the best.

The complication is that the old Romans were seriously barbaric and inhumanly cruel, so killing the children of another race and Country was not beneath the Romans of those times.

So even if some how the record is not accurate - then there remains a sad reality that the people of those times could have and would have done such atrocities at their own whims.

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Human beings have committed atrocities throughout our history. It is nothing new, nor has it ever stopped.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

JP Cusick said:

Yes, that link gives the meaning.

A hole in the ground covered up as in a grave or cemetery, or as a tomb.


hell (n.) Look up hell at Dictionary.com
Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions," from Proto-Germanic *haljo "the underworld" (cognates: f. Old Frisian helle, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell") "the underworld," literally "concealed place" (compare Old Norse hellir "cave, cavern"), from PIE *kel- (2) "to cover, conceal" (see cell).

The English word may be in part from Old Norse Hel (from Proto-Germanic *halija "one who covers up or hides something"), in Norse mythology the name of Loki's daughter, who rules over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds (nifl "mist"). Transfer of a pagan concept and word to a Christian idiom. In Middle English, also of the Limbus Patrum, place where the Patriarchs, Prophets, etc. awaited the Atonement. Used in the KJV for Old Testament Hebrew Sheol and New Testament Greek Hades, Gehenna. Used figuratively for "state of misery, any bad experience" since at least late 14c. As an expression of disgust, etc., first recorded 1670s.
.

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hell (n.) Look up hell at Dictionary.com
Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions," from Proto-Germanic *haljo "the underworld" (cognates: f. Old Frisian helle, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell") "the underworld," literally "concealed place" (compare Old Norse hellir "cave, cavern"), from PIE *kel- (2) "to cover, conceal" (see cell).

The English word may be in part from Old Norse Hel (from Proto-Germanic *halija "one who covers up or hides something"), in Norse mythology the name of Loki's daughter, who rules over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds (nifl "mist"). Transfer of a pagan concept and word to a Christian idiom. In Middle English, also of the Limbus Patrum, place where the Patriarchs, Prophets, etc. awaited the Atonement. Used in the KJV for Old Testament Hebrew Sheol and New Testament Greek Hades, Gehenna. Used figuratively for "state of misery, any bad experience" since at least late 14c. As an expression of disgust, etc., first recorded 1670s.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

JP Cusick said:

Yes, that link gives the meaning.

A hole in the ground covered up as in a grave or cemetery, or as a tomb.


===================================================



I would hope that slaughter was not true or not real and that maybe it never happened.

We can hope for the best.

The complication is that the old Romans were seriously barbaric and inhumanly cruel, so killing the children of another race and Country was not beneath the Romans of those times.

So even if some how the record is not accurate - then there remains a sad reality that the people of those times could have and would have done such atrocities at their own whims.

Click to expand...

Oh, nothing I wouldn't put past ole Herod, "murder" was his middle name.

Just in this case it wasn't him, respectively all things considered the massacre didn't even happen. That didn't make him less of the psychotic madman that he was.

He didn't need the Romans for every other atrocity he committed.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

rhinefire said:

Watching "Killing Jesus" last the thought hit me Jesus is born and immediately innocent infants and children are killed because of it. So that sheds a whole new light on his life and the number of people that have been killed because of him.

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Seems to me the devil got into Herod and caused the murder of the infants. It wasn't God's fault and it wasn't Jesus' fault.

rhinefire said:

If he was being guided by God why then was he told to resist the laws knowing what was coming?

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What laws are you referring to that Jesus 'broke'?

rhinefire said:

How many people must die? Listen to the song "Blowing In The Wind". I am not religious but I am not an atheists and the reason I have not faith in any God is all are man made. The life and impact of Jesus is horrible to say the least. I can never justify his life as holy nor can I believe in the Christian concept of God not that it is any worse than other religions.

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Seems to me Jesus saves people. And according to scripture people can either choose Jesus as their Lord and Savior or wind up in Hell. And if people do wind up in Hell then it's on them for being stupid.

rhinefire said:

His word was to love one another, etc. and that is simply not happening is it?

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Listen, just because some people violate or abrogate his teachings and cause harm and evil in doing so, doesn't mean Jesus did anything wrong.

By the way, have you ever read the Bible?

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Chagos said:

Oh, nothing I wouldn't put past ole Herod, "murder" was his middle name.

Just in this case it wasn't him, respectively all things considered the massacre didn't even happen.

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You have some special knowledge that the massacre never happened? Because just saying so isn't very compelling.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

brothern said:

and thus it’s pretty darn obvious even before you ask Roman historians that the slaughter of Israelite male babies by Herod is completely fictional.

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How would they know? They weren't there. Written accounts for many occurrences back then were rare. And I'm quite sure there's a lot of things that happened for which related manuscripts are no longer extant.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Logicman said:

How would they know? They weren't there. Written accounts for many occurrences back then were rare. And I'm quite sure there's a lot of things that happened for which related manuscripts are no longer extant.

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The Roman government and its historians were excellent record keepers. How do you think we know about Caesar's assassination 500 years before the birth of Christ? Meanwhile the Massacre of Innocents is only mentioned in one single passage in the entire Bible. No Roman historian or government source, nor any Jewish source ever mentions it. Just Matthew, and he's already been caught manipulating Jesus' story.

It's nonfactual, just like Moses. By a long shot.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Logicman said:

You have some special knowledge that the massacre never happened? Because just saying so isn't very compelling.

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No need for "special".

The accounts (biblical) come from Matthew as the only source. No other mention anywhere.

One would think that Jewish traditions (being what they are) would have the deed ingrained in collective memory. After all we're talking about THEIR children.

Nothing.

One would think that Josephus would have heard of the whole thing and certainly reported it. Nope.

Most biographers of Herod agree on the whole thing not happening. Now you may argue that most of any group agreeing on something means squat and I'd agree. But then most historian agreeing on there having been a man called Jesus would mean squat by the same logic (even where I'm inclined to follow them).

Nope, sterner stuff needed here than what one guy uttered years after the proclaimed death of a man called Jesus.

That's also a logical conclusion.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

brothern said:

The Roman government and its historians were excellent record keepers. How do you think we know about Caesar's assassination 500 years before the birth of Christ? Meanwhile the Massacre of Innocents is only mentioned in one single passage in the entire Bible. No Roman historian or government source, nor any Jewish source ever mentions it. Just Matthew, and he's already been caught manipulating Jesus' story.

It's nonfactual, just like Moses. By a long shot.

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Sorry, not buying it.

Bethlehem was known by the Biblical prophet Micah as one of the smallest communities in all of Judea, so just how many babies 2 years old or younger do you really think there were? Three? Five? Maybe ten?

For the record, Professor William F. Albright, the dean of American archaeology in the Holy Land, estimates that the population of Bethlehem at the time of Jesus' birth to be about 300 people (Albright and Mann 1971:19). The number of male children, two years old or younger, would be about six or seven (Maier 1998:178, footnote 25). This would hardly be a newsworthy event in light of what else was going on at the time (Biblearchaeology.org).

Considering all the butchery Herod was involved in, even murdering people in his own family, I don't see the Bethlehem killing as a major news story, especially since CNN and FOX and the other networks didn't even exist back then.

Finally, they don't call an argument from silence (which is what you're making), a logical fallacy, for nothing.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Chagos said:

No need for "special".

The accounts (biblical) come from Matthew as the only source. No other mention anywhere.

One would think that Jewish traditions (being what they are) would have the deed ingrained in collective memory. After all we're talking about THEIR children.

Nothing.

One would think that Josephus would have heard of the whole thing and certainly reported it. Nope.

Most biographers of Herod agree on the whole thing not happening. Now you may argue that most of any group agreeing on something means squat and I'd agree. But then most historian agreeing on there having been a man called Jesus would mean squat by the same logic (even where I'm inclined to follow them).

Nope, sterner stuff needed here than what one guy uttered years after the proclaimed death of a man called Jesus.

That's also a logical conclusion.

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See my Post #22 above.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Logicman said:

See my Post #22 above.

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ha. As I've noticed before, the only person who believes you on this forum is you.

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Logicman said:

................... according to scripture people can either choose Jesus as their Lord and Savior or wind up in Hell. And if people do wind up in Hell then it's on them for being stupid................................

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Interesting.

So Muslims go to that hell of yours, Buddhists do, followers of Shintoism do? Not to mention the many in the world living in such geographical seclusion as to never have heard of any of the above?

Man (if that's what you are seeing how the "Logic" in your name hardly holds up already), if you were representative of Christianity, then it would be in a helluva state.

As you've no doubt gathered meanwhile, I don't choose anything or anyone that you state. That make me stupid?

Go on, just confirm it.