• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of Him

Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

ha. As I've noticed before, the only person who believes you on this forum is you. :p

Frankly I think that's nonsense.

Where's your poll, brothern?
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Interesting.

So Muslims go to that hell of yours, Buddhists do, followers of Shintoism do? Not to mention the many in the world living in such geographical seclusion as to never have heard of any of the above?

Man (if that's what you are seeing how the "Logic" in your name hardly holds up already), if you were representative of Christianity, then it would be in a helluva state.

As you've no doubt gathered meanwhile, I don't choose anything or anyone that you state. That make me stupid?

Go on, just confirm it.

Personally I don't care what you believe. But if you're going to post false information about Jesus and the Bible, then I'll choose to refute it or move on.
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Sorry, not buying it.

Bethlehem was known by the Biblical prophet Micah as one of the smallest communities in all of Judea, so just how many babies 2 years old or younger do you really think there were? Three? Five? Maybe ten?

For the record, Professor William F. Albright, the dean of American archaeology in the Holy Land, estimates that the population of Bethlehem at the time of Jesus' birth to be about 300 people (Albright and Mann 1971:19). The number of male children, two years old or younger, would be about six or seven (Maier 1998:178, footnote 25). This would hardly be a newsworthy event in light of what else was going on at the time (Biblearchaeology.org).

Considering all the butchery Herod was involved in, even murdering people in his own family, I don't see the Bethlehem killing as a major news story, especially since CNN and FOX and the other networks didn't even exist back then.
Fair enough, not implausible.

Even more plausible (considering Herod's somewhat homicidally-psychopathic nature) would be that he wouldn't send out a squad to kill just 6, 10 or twenty babies. More like "mop up the surrounding countryside while you're at it, just to be on the safe side".

Sure, that's assuming. But you're leading the way.
Finally, they don't call an argument from silence (which is what you're making), a logical fallacy, for nothing.
educate yourself on the argument from silence, you appear not to know its definition (don't bother with Wiki, they're not in-depth).
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Fair enough, not implausible.

Even more plausible (considering Herod's somewhat homicidally-psychopathic nature) would be that he wouldn't send out a squad to kill just 6, 10 or twenty babies. More like "mop up the surrounding countryside while you're at it, just to be on the safe side".

Sure, that's assuming. But you're leading the way.educate yourself on the argument from silence, you appear not to know its definition (don't bother with Wiki, they're not in-depth).

I'll stick with what I presented.
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Personally I don't care what you believe. But if you're going to post false information about Jesus and the Bible, then I'll choose to refute it or move on.
I don't care what you believe either.

Not having read all of your posts I can conclude only from sampling. And that sampling leads to the conclusion that the day is still to come when you successfully refute anything at all.

Moving on is probably a good idea for you, always bringing a penknife to a gunfight can't be all that pleasing in the long run.:mrgreen:
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

I'll stick with what I presented.
with a finger in each ear shouting "did too"?
:2razz:
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

I don't care what you believe either.

Not having read all of your posts I can conclude only from sampling. And that sampling leads to the conclusion that the day is still to come when you successfully refute anything at all.

Moving on is probably a good idea for you, always bringing a penknife to a gunfight can't be all that pleasing in the long run.:mrgreen:

Well, you're the one who hopefully learned something today regarding the size of Bethlehem and the probable composition of children two and under.
 
Last edited:
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Well, you're the one who hopefully learned something today regarding the size of Bethlehem and the probably composition of children two and under.
I knew that decades ago. Also that the "two and under" didn't surface until James (Protoevangelium) around 150 C.E. (Matthew mentions it not).

Been there BTW, not that it matters.
 
Last edited:
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

I am not religious but I am not an atheists and the reason I have not faith in any God is all are man made.
That doesn't make any sense. You're basically saying "I don't have faith in god because I think there is no god and it's all just an invention of man". That's a tautology and as such not a very useful argument; you're just repeating the same thing twice and using it as evidence of itself.


The life and impact of Jesus is horrible to say the least.

Let's see...among other things, Christianity has:
1. Been at the forefront of the movement to end slavery
2. Been the driver of the civil rights movement
3. Invented the concept of universities and higher education, being the motivation for the creation of the education systems we now enjoy
4. Drove the movement to end child labor in the West and continues to fight to end it worldwide
5. Virtually invented the very concept of orphanages and have been at the forefront of caring for the parentless ever since
6. Have been at the forefront of healthcare for over a millenium, being the primary drivers of the creation of new hospitals
7. Continue to fight hunger and injustice around the world

Now, granted that there have also been negative things that can be traced to Christianity. However, when you use a phrase like "to say the least", I get the impression you don't really know what you are talking about and haven't weighed whether the impact of Jesus has been positive or not.

Watching the show last night proved beyond any question we are even more savage to each other now than we were back then.

You do realize that you are basing your views about this on a tv adaptation of a book by Bill O'Riley, a man with only an undergraduate level of knowledge of history whose books have been widely panned for their inaccuracies and fabrications.

Furthermore, how do you figure we are more savage now?

That being said, is Jesus working, was his life futile

See some of the things I mentioned before. Even a passing knowledge of history shows that Christianity revolutionized the world for the better, having been at the forefront of so much positive social change. The world is a far more moral place today than it was prior to Christianity, and Christianity has been one of the main drivers behind that change.

and please do not respond with "The good will go to heaven after this life" type responses, we have all heard those before.

Are you looking for novel answers or true answers? I would hope that an answer to this question would be something you have heard before.

His word was to love one another, etc. and that is simply not happening is it?

Is it happening? Yes. Are we there yet? No. I think if we found a way to quantify evil and injustice and then plot it on a graph, you would see that the trend is towards things getting better.
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of


Yes, that link gives the meaning.

A hole in the ground covered up as in a grave or cemetery, or as a tomb.
:attn1:
hell (n.) Look up hell at Dictionary.com
Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions," from Proto-Germanic *haljo "the underworld" (cognates: f. Old Frisian helle, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell") "the underworld," literally "concealed place" (compare Old Norse hellir "cave, cavern"), from PIE *kel- (2) "to cover, conceal" (see cell).

The English word may be in part from Old Norse Hel (from Proto-Germanic *halija "one who covers up or hides something"), in Norse mythology the name of Loki's daughter, who rules over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds (nifl "mist").
Transfer of a pagan concept and word to a Christian idiom. In Middle English, also of the Limbus Patrum, place where the Patriarchs, Prophets, etc. awaited the Atonement. Used in the KJV for Old Testament Hebrew Sheol and New Testament Greek Hades, Gehenna. Used figuratively for "state of misery, any bad experience" since at least late 14c. As an expression of disgust, etc., first recorded 1670s.
I did agree with you.

And most specifically this = "Transfer of a pagan concept and word to a Christian idiom."

The concept of a "Hell" came from the old Greek religion concerning the God of the underworld - Hades.

Jesus did not preach any Gospel of vengence or of wrath as Jesus preached the Gospel of forgiveness and mercy and love for enemies, see Luke 6:32-36.

I really see any arguing as to whether the Romans or Egypt ever murdered a bunch of babies or young children is just a way of avoiding the real subject.
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

I obviously haven't seen "Killing Jesus," so I'm uncertain of what you're referring to rhinefire when you mention infants and children ... but more over to the Point: Jesus isn't real. Sure, okay, there may have been a historical Jesus, but his "story" as it is described in the Gospels just didn't happen. There was no Sermon on the Mount, trial, crucifixion or resurrection. The story is a result of a evolved mythology, that took shape over the course of 60 years. It has little historical basis.

Of course, that sure doesn't stop us from discussing the New Testament narrative as a nonfiction story. In which case, what was this thing about infants and children?


Are you kidding? The world is more at peace and kinder to one another right now than it has ever been in its history.

You don't believe me? One word: Cannibalism. Something that used to be very, very common and practiced by entire societies, but now rarely, if ever occurs.

The world today SHOULD wiser and smarter instead we are more sophisticated in the art of genocide As for cannibalism it still exists and what is better acts of cannibalism after killing a person or killing one thousand and no cannibalism?
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Those kids were only a local thing about tribal dominance and the chieftain's legitimacy.

Give the reason they were murdered.
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

What I see is that you are making two (2) mistakes which come from the brainwashing of us all, as we must un-learn things first before we can see more clear.

First is that the Roman Empire in all of its life and territories was a horribly savage brutal and inhuman reality and it was never ever glamorous or enlightened.

The 2nd thing is that Jesus was just a powerful person but Jesus was not God, and all humans are children (sons and daughters) of the Father God.

I agree with the "Reply #2 from joG" in that murdering babies (or children) is what is done by the "tribal dominance and the chieftain's legitimacy", and we still today murder babies by the millions through abortions and other means as humanity is still violently barbaric today and ongoing.

Jesus brought a powerful message to the entire world - oh yes, but most people fail to understand the message of Christ.

The message from Christ was single-"rebellion" against the power structure and that is lost in the peace and love stories we have to listen to. "Turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies", how are those messages fairing to date?
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Give the reason they were murdered.

Wasn't it because the King was unhappy that one of them might usurp his job? Not a nice king, huh?
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

One huge problem with people today is attempting to equate the acts of barbarism with todays morals. Let's not lose sight of back then they feared no vengeance from a god for acts of killing. Once in a while a Messiah would stroll through town preaching this or that and no one listened like no one listened to Jesus. Killing today is more sterile. Colonel Tibets had his mother's name painted on his plane before it dropped the A-bomb. I'll bet there were prayers for success for that flight, wouldn't you? How many people in the world celebrated after Japan finally gave up after the hydrogen bomb was dropped on Nagasaki? Comparing the Roman Empire to today's American empire should start with counting the number of nuclear weapons we have planted all over God's Great Earth. Add in the Russian missiles and you come up with the Roman Empire looking like a convent. Who the hell are you people kidding?
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

(facepalm)

Historical sources for Moses

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archaeological Evidence for the Exodus

IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt

Once again you provide a link which fails to support your claims. From the Wiki link
The existence of Moses as well as the veracity of the Exodus story are disputed among archaeologists and Egyptologists, with experts in the field of biblical criticism citing logical inconsistencies, new archaeological evidence, historical evidence, and related origin myths in Canaanite culture.[4][5][6] Other historians maintain that the biographical details and Egyptian background attributed to Moses imply the existence of a historical political and religious leader who was involved in the consolidation of the Hebrew tribes in Canaan towards the end of the Bronze Age.

4]"Princeton University Press Press Reviews, retrieved 6th June 2009". Press.princeton.edu
5]The Quest for the Historical Israel: Debating Archeology and the History of Early Israel, 2007, Society of Biblical Literature, Atlanta, ISBN 978-1-58983-277-0.
6]John Van Seters, "The life of Moses", ISBN 90-390-0112-X

Your apologetic link uses a lot of "probably", "similar to", and "has the same name", along with conflating tales that range over 300+ years. The archaeological work has long shown that Jericho was already a ruin at the supposed time given in the Bible for the attack by Joshua.
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Watching "Killing Jesus"
Well there's yer problem


the thought hit me Jesus is born and immediately innocent infants and children are killed because of it.
I have a hard time imagining what sequence of historical misinformation could possibly lead you to this conclusion.

You do know that the Israelites had several rounds of rebellion against the Romans before there were enough Christians for anyone to notice, right? Right?


So that sheds a whole new light on his life and the number of people that have been killed because of him.
I'm not religious, but fair is fair. The role of religion in wars and violence is often exaggerated and misunderstood. Although some conflicts are stoked by religious views, in most cases it's more that the religion gets co-opted and recruited by states, military forces, and others to justify their violent actions.

Karen Armstrong discusses this more in depth in her book Fields of Blood.


Watching the show last night proved beyond any question we are even more savage to each other now than we were back then.
Sorry to say that's another mistake. The world has MUCH less violence than at pretty much any time in the past, including pre-historical societies.

Steven Pinker exhaustively summarizes the historical and contemporary evidence in his book, Better Angels of Our Nature.


is Jesus working, was his life futile and please do not respond with "The good will go to heaven after this life" type responses, we have all heard those before. His word was to love one another, etc. and that is simply not happening is it?
Again, I'm not in any way religious. But:

I don't think that's really a fair question. There is really no way to accurately construct such a complex counterfactual as "what if Jesus wasn't born" or "what if Christianity did not exist." Any answers we propose say far more about us, than about any alternative histories or analysis of the effects of a religion.
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

The message from Christ was single-"rebellion" against the power structure and that is lost in the peace and love stories we have to listen to. "Turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies", how are those messages fairing to date?
I agree with all of this, and I am impressed that you know the message from Christ was that of rebellion.

To "Turn the other cheek" is really about rebellion too, in that first one must be slapped and then turning the other cheek for a double slap is really a very personal and upfront type of rebellion.

It is the misguided people of Christianity that changed the doctrine of "turning the other cheek" into some passive defenselessness - when it is done correctly then it challenges the attacker, plus the attacker always has the greater power in doing a physical attack.

There is a similar misunderstanding about "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" as that put a limit on the violent response, as it is to be ONLY (only) an eye for an eye and ONLY a tooth for a tooth.

To "love thy enemy" does not mean that we change the enemy into a friend and then love thy friend, as the enemy remains an enemy, so love does not include LIKING the enemy, as they must still be seen as an enemy while we use a non-hateful method of rebellion against them.

Martin Luther King gave a sermon (in book of Kings') where he explains the meaning of "loving thy enemy" when that enemy intended to kill him and to hurt his family so he did not like his enemies while following that principle of loving thy enemy.

And still I am agreeing with everything you say above, but those principles are NOT being used or promoted or even understood by the mainstream Christianity.

The true message of Christ has been trampled under, but that message is still the powerful way to those who can do it.
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Once again you provide a link which fails to support your claims. From the Wiki link

Your apologetic link uses a lot of "probably", "similar to", and "has the same name", along with conflating tales that range over 300+ years. The archaeological work has long shown that Jericho was already a ruin at the supposed time given in the Bible for the attack by Joshua.

It's amazing the amount of information you sweep under the rug in an effort to prop up your anti-Christianity skepticism.
 
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

Watching "Killing Jesus" last the thought hit me Jesus is born and immediately innocent infants and children are killed because of it. So that sheds a whole new light on his life and the number of people that have been killed because of him. If he was being guided by God why then was he told to resist the laws knowing what was coming? How many people must die? Listen to the song "Blowing In The Wind". I am not religious but I am not an atheists and the reason I have not faith in any God is all are man made. The life and impact of Jesus is horrible to say the least. I can never justify his life as holy nor can I believe in the Christian concept of God not that it is any worse than other religions.
As for the timing of his arrival on earth who can say what would be a better time or worse time? Watching the show last night proved beyond any question we are even more savage to each other now than we were back then. That being said, is Jesus working, was his life futile and please do not respond with "The good will go to heaven after this life" type responses, we have all heard those before. His word was to love one another, etc. and that is simply not happening is it?


You asked: As for the timing of his arrival on earth who can say what would be a better time or worse time?

Who can, indeed, say....unless you know the mind of God? Who knows and fully understands the mind of God?
That question is also applicable to the rest of your post. We don't have to like or agree with the way God do things. That's just the truth of it.


It's hard for some (especially non-believers - and I'm not being condescending), to understand the concept of God.



You'll just have to wrap your mind about the tremendous power of the Creator - who has no equal - who can do anything, and who does not have to answer to anyone.

Whatever opinion you may have about his methods is irrelevant.

Whether we want to accept it or not, we are created for His pleasure.
 
Last edited:
Re: Oddity: The Son of God Is Born And People Are Being Murdered Instantly Because Of

The thread, as stated, makes a conclusion (People are being murdered instantly because of Him) that is not supported by the story to which it refers. Herod caused the children to be murdered because of his own insecurity about the legitimacy of his rule. He was reacting to the wise men's inquiry as to the location of the "King of Jews", a title that Herod believed he could claim. Herod had no other information regarding the birth of Jesus when he decided to slaughter the male children.
 
Back
Top Bottom