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Why are some people...
- Thread starter Glowpun
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Because that is absolutely false? That would seem the primary reason.
The slaughter of the indigenous peoples of North, Central and South America and the Caribbean had nothing to do with religion. The Civil War, WWI and WW2 had nothing to do with religion. The genocide of Stalin and Mao had nothing to do with religion, and the holocaust was about ethnicity, not religion.
The American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Spanish American War, the Korean War and the War in Vietnam had nothing to do with religion. The Mongol invasion wasn't about religion. The building of the Ottoman Empire was not directly about religion. I don't think the War between Romans and Greeks was about religion. Nor the war between Egypt and the Hittites. The war between Russia and Japan wasn't about religion, now the wars by Japan against China and Korea.
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Don't you feel just a little bit manipulated?
joG
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Lots of people get tired of being called stupid.
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Define, "touchy" or "riled up."
If one posts a statement in a forum, such as one you give - would you call counter-statements, or rebuttals by other posters as a sign of being "touchy" or "riled up?"
One can simply argue back to prove you wrong! FYI, that's called, debate!
I'd say one who recieves a counter-rebuttal, and instead of responding to the argument given, turns around to say that the opponent is "touchy" or "riled up," has shown himself soundly licked.
KOed. No more ammo. :mrgreen:
That's like using irrelevant deflecting arguments, like raising the "Christian" card. :lamo
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Sucessful in eliciting a response(s)....why, sure.
We're in a forum. people respond for some reasons. Some respond just because they're bored.
Some responds out of fun! Some responds to turn tables around.
Some troll threads are fun to respond to. Who looks foolish in the end could be what the game is all about,
I suppose.
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Well Caesar said that he was fighting for God so does that mean we take the word of Caesar as being the truth and then condemn religion based on the word of a warmonger?
Adolf Hitler claimed that he was fighting for God so does that mean we take the word of Hitler as being the truth and then condemn religion based on the word of a warmonger?
George W. Bush pretended that he was fighting for God so does that mean we take the word of Bush as being the truth and then condemn religion based on the word of a warmonger?
And now here you "Glowpun" claims that people are killed in the name of God so does that mean we take your word as being the truth and then condemn religion based on the word of such a person who makes such a false claim?
Answer to all above questions = No, no, no and no.
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I really do not like this name-calling of people as "trolls" especially since it has no real meaning.
If you get upset by this discussion then you do not need to view it or to reply.
And if that person is "successful" at it as you claim - then maybe you could try to learn from the example instead of trumpeting your own jealousy.
Perhaps the real trouble maker (the troll) is the one who just calls names without adding to the discussion?
Just saying.
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Not 'troll' as in mythical Nordic creature, 'troll' as in drag a hook behind and see what you catch. In that sense, the noun 'a troll' is the pass you make dragging the hook.
My objection was that the OP was purely provocation. There was no position stated, no offer of discussion, just an attempt to get a rise out of someone.
'Rise', there's another term from fishing. I wonder...
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Yes. On all three counts. Also, I like how the first two "claimed" to fight for their gods and Bush only "pretended" to. Except that he was probably the most devout and sincere in his religious motivation for warmongering of the three. I don't really know how much religion would have played into Caesar's wars, though. Modern religion in the age of science and skepticism is a very different thing from previous eras where religion was inseparable from other aspects of one's life. Charlemagne would be a much better example. His mission was specifically to have Christianity conquer the rest of Europe.
People who are motivated to do violence because of their religion aren't lying about it. They aren't interpreting it wrong. They aren't poor representations of the faith. You can't no true scotsman them away. They're part of that faith's legacy. They really are inspired by their faith to murder, torture, and maim. And whatever good a religious belief might do must be weighed against that.
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Examples of this are few and far between. What you are more likely to find is a lot of wars that had many causes and that used religion as an excuse. Using the very example you claim is the most obvious religious motivation, we see that the war in Iraq had a lot of causes. To name a few off the top of my head:
1. To satiate the bloodlust of 9/11
2. To bring the oil in the region under the control of US backed regimes
3. To finish a job that was left undone from the previous war in Iraq
4. To increase US influence in the Middle East
5. As part of a strategy to cripple the perceived enemies of the US (The Axis of Evil)
6. To create more work for Haliburton and other contracting companies
There are dozens of reasons why the Iraq war was attractive to the Bush regime. Religion was likely one of the least important factors if it was a factor at all. This is what you will find if you go back through history and look at all of these so called religious conflicts. Religion is merely the tool the aristocracy uses to placate the masses. Without religion as a lever, they would have just pulled a different lever. They would have pulled the nationalism lever or the justice lever or the freedom lever, or something else. Eliminate religion and you will have just as many wars, the only difference will be in how the ruling parties promote the war among the proletariat.
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I see that as giving far too much credit or blame to the people as if the religion is the people who profess it.
I see the people (in credit or in blame) as just a distraction from religion and from God.
The people get in the way and distort the truth and so we must look past the people.
Perhaps this is because I know that there is a real living Father God so I am not distracted by any person or massive group of people as they are NOT the end-all.
Many people (including myself) view the fall of the barbaric Roman Empire was because it had accepted Christianity because the Christians could not sustain the vast cruel inhumanity of that evil empire.
It also needs to be included the reality that human beings are naturally animalistic and carnal, in that humans are naturally cruel and violent and barbaric, so humans never needed religion to be hateful and humans just claim religion to pursue our own animal instincts of blood lust.
The human wars, murder, tortures, and etc, would have happened even without any claim to religion.
We do have examples like the Mahatma Gandhi used religion correctly in India against the British, and eventually Gandhi's doctrines have helped to make the entire world into a better place. There is also the US Civil Rights years where religion was used against the evil white American laws.
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Because that is a blatantly false statement? Have you even looked at the past 3 centuries of conflict? Even the Crusades was largely political, and religion was simply an excuse to recruit people.
But as to why I don't take kindly to people insulting my religion? What if someone insulted something pivotal in your life? Your family? Your best friends? That is essentially the same. By insulting my religion, you insult me.
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You know that Rome used religion as an excuse to conquer the world? How is that NOT political? It was well known that Rome used religion as a scapegoat to do battle as well as to inspire their men to go into combat. Hardly "killing" in the name of God. It is all political.
And I'm sorry. Bush went to war over religion? That is just making **** up now.
Except it is quite clear to anyone not willing to shoehorn in the whole "religion caused all death" myth. When someone is trying to conquer the globe and gaining money and power? That probably isn't about religion.
And in turn solidify his empire? Again...someone using religion for a political gain.
Then all violence committed by white people are part of your legacy (and mine). All violence committed by Americans is part of your legacy. Does that make you evil or bad for being a white American? I certainly hope not.
Ps
I like how you treat it as an impossibility that someone could lie about their motivations. It reminds me of that South Park episode where butter's dad is convinced the drone is self aware because there is no way Butters used the drone without his say so. Lol.
Pss
I'm not saying religion can't be a motivator for violence. But I am saying that it is more likely to be used as a scapegoat for someone trying to get rich and powerful at the expense of others. That's politics
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Grow a thicker skin. I'm not insulted by people who insist that my atheism is wrong and that I should believe in a magic god.
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Maybe because your atheism isnt who you are? What if I insulted your family? How you were raised? Your way of life? What you believe in?
Yea. You go ahead and preach that "thicker skin" bull****. You only say that because you don't understand faith. If you did, you would understand that insulting someone's religion is insulting ALL of that at once. Anyone who thinks that is ok...is an asshole.
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Not believing in the existence of any god is insulting your family? How does that work? Would you respect me if I told you that I firmly believed in the existence of the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus? Why should religion get a free pass and be immune from criticism? Do you view every atheist as an insult to your family? You are a Hindu atheist. Are you insulting the families of all Hindus?
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No. Insulting my religion is though.
I will put this as clearly as I can, even though not insulting someone should be a simple concept:
THIS is insulting. Comparing someone's religion to the tooth fairy is insulting. It would be like me telling you that your atheism is just a phase or You are just confused.
It doesn't. But being an atheist doesn't give someone a free pass to be a bigoted asshole.
I never claimed atheism was insulting my family. I said insulting my religion is insulting my family. In fact...it is more than that as I said. It is insulting everything about my way of life. And something tells me that would piss you off if someone did it to you
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joG
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Many children have imaginary friends. It doesn't mean that they are stupid.
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It is odd how a person on a discussion forum will ask a straight up quest - and then you give a straight up answer - and yet other people on the board can not handle that.
Of course the same ones who criticize have NEVER given a straight answer to your questions.
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Don't worry. I know. The whole "religion is the cause of violence" myth is busted hundreds of times over...and there is never a reply. I suppose it has something to do with pride and not wanting it pointed out that they accept that myth on faith and not evidence