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I'm a theist!

zyzygy said:
Could that not have been a hallucination?
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That is a legitimate theory, and an hallucination can have different applications as in having a vision.

The Native American Indians would use hallucinogenics in their spiritual practices and there is some real merit to using such drugs to get more spiritual.

That is thought to be a big motivation for the huge narcotics use in that the people are starving for a real spiritual experience and the psychedelic drugs can do that for the users.

In some eastern religions they use fasting and meditation and other methods to give them the same effects as one gets from the narcotics, so it does have a layer of legitimacy.

The thing about drugs is that is the easy way without the effort or the faith as the drugs are taking the spiritual artificially and by force.
 
JP Cusick said:
That is a legitimate theory, and an hallucination can have different applications as in having a vision.

The Native American Indians would use hallucinogenics in their spiritual practices and there is some real merit to using such drugs to get more spiritual.

That is thought to be a big motivation for the huge narcotics use in that the people are starving for a real spiritual experience and the psychedelic drugs can do that for the users.

In some eastern religions they use fasting and meditation and other methods to give them the same effects as one gets from the narcotics, so it does have a layer of legitimacy.

The thing about drugs is that is the easy way without the effort or the faith as the drugs are taking the spiritual artificially and by force.
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So, drugs allow the deluded to be even more deluded.
 
William Rea said:
So, drugs allow the deluded to be even more deluded.
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I dislike the word "deluded" but still you do have a point.

The vast majority of humanity are lost and or misguided and or confused, so yes the drugs give them a cheap and artificial spirituality instead of them making the effort to enlighten their self.

The human craving for God and for truth is very powerful, and most people simply fight that craving with all their might.
 
RAMOSS said:
Uh. you know that the story from the ICR is a total fantasy, right?? It has no basis in reality what so ever.
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Uh....what I clearly recall is that....you're the one who's posting a lot of fantasy.
I know you don't even know anything about the Jewish book - not even the fact that it's also called the Old Testament.

I also know you don't know what rationalization actually means.

Or, your latest........tadaaaa....."confirmation bias." :mrgreen:

You seem to have a penchant for throwing words - BIG words. :lol:



I bet you won't be able to pinpoint a single "fantasy" from the article I gave that's from ICR.
 
laska said:
I know, it's pretty obvious a troll thread.
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I love troll threads!

Anyway....who knows, it might not be a troll thread, although it does look like one. When it comes to sensitive issues such as this, we can't really say..... :shrug:

No harm giving it the benefit of the doubt. It's best that it be treated the way it was presented.
He's asking questions - some of us are just so willing to oblige.

I'm thinking more of the silent viewers. Some could possibly have questions along the same vein that's being asked by Spud.
 
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JP Cusick said:
That is a legitimate theory, and an hallucination can have different applications as in having a vision.

The Native American Indians would use hallucinogenics in their spiritual practices and there is some real merit to using such drugs to get more spiritual.

That is thought to be a big motivation for the huge narcotics use in that the people are starving for a real spiritual experience and the psychedelic drugs can do that for the users.

In some eastern religions they use fasting and meditation and other methods to give them the same effects as one gets from the narcotics, so it does have a layer of legitimacy.

The thing about drugs is that is the easy way without the effort or the faith as the drugs are taking the spiritual artificially and by force.
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There's a very real possibility that psychoactive mushrooms grew in the middle east during antiquity.
 
tosca1 said:
Uh....what I clearly recall is that....you're the one who's posting a lot of fantasy.
I know you don't even know anything about the Jewish book - not even the fact that it's also called the Old Testament.

I also know you don't know what rationalization actually means.

Or, your latest........tadaaaa....."confirmation bias." :mrgreen:

You seem to have a penchant for throwing words - BIG words. :lol:



I bet you won't be able to pinpoint a single "fantasy" from the article I gave that's from ICR.
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I assure you, that the Jewish people do not refer to their holy scriptures as 'the old testament'. ..except when speaking with Christians to be polite. I don't feel the need to call it 'THe Old Testament' to be polite to Christians.
 
tosca1 said:
Since I've already answered that, let's get back to your OP. I'll repeat my response....and I expect a feedback from you about this.


I gave you the basic points to consider to find which is the true CREATOR - since, finding the TRUE CREATOR is your desire (according to the OP). Thus I started with creation.

You've got to study their creation stories. Which holy book had gotten it right?

The Bible had given a lot of facts (thousands of years before science had proven them right) - which shows the Christian God has intimate knowledge of His creation.

Do you understand what that means? Do you grasp the significance of that?



Who would've thought there are mountains and trenches and fountains at the bottom of the sea, as an example? Refer to the WORD OF GOD in religion section.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/156711-word-god-2.html

Or deep sea springs?

Among the most thought provoking of God's questions to Job was, "Have you entered into the springs of the sea?" (Job 38:16a). The word for "springs" is NEBEK (transliterated from Hebrew), an unusual word referring to the places where water issues or bursts out of the earth. Job must have pondered this question with amazement, for although he had seen many springs on the land, he had no experience with undersea springs. Today we know why. The ocean is very deep; almost all the ocean floor is in total darkness; the pressure there is enormous. It would have been impossible for Job to have explored the "springs of the sea."

The discovery of ocean floor springs represents a great milestone in the scientific investigation of the earth. Before 1930 little was known about the ocean floor.

The first direct observations of deepsea springs, or their mineralized vents, appear to have been made on the Mid-Atlantic Ridge by Project FAMOUS in 1973. Spectacular hot springs were then discovered on the Galapagos Rift in the Pacific Ocean by the 23-foot long submersible Alvin in 1977. Alvin also explored, photographed and sampled hot springs on the East Pacific Rise just south of the Gulf of California in 1979. The research continues.


The Institute for Creation Research


The first direct observation of deepsea springs happened in 1973, and yet it's been described in the Bible!

Like I said, my God has shown to have intimate knowledge of His creation!



Is there any holy book that could match the Bible with all the information it offers (of course, including the prophecies)?




Just as you'd claimed to have been swayed by logic to believe that the Creator exist......you should also use logic to find out which is the One and true God.
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Tosca, I'm honestly perplexed by your argument here. You are suggesting that, because the bible has some descriptions in it of things that are real, it is of divine origin? Let's start with the fact that much of it is vague poetry. A description of "mountains skipping like rams" does not actually mean that anyone at the time had any idea how earthquakes worked. Your example here of "springs of the sea" being some kind of prophecy about discovering things on the ocean floor is a very long stretch. That not everything in the bible is complete nonsense, but that much of it is, is entirely consistent with it being the product of human beings writing with minimal understanding of the world around them. Even if there was an unusually large amount of applicable and useful knowledge in the bible (there isn't), that still wouldn't be indicative that any of its supernatural claims were true.

I get that you believe this stuff, but I don't see why you think that this is a good argument that you're making. Plus, you know, you're quoting part of Jewish scripture to justify Christianity. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, either.
 
JP Cusick said:
That is a legitimate theory, and an hallucination can have different applications as in having a vision.

The Native American Indians would use hallucinogenics in their spiritual practices and there is some real merit to using such drugs to get more spiritual.

That is thought to be a big motivation for the huge narcotics use in that the people are starving for a real spiritual experience and the psychedelic drugs can do that for the users.

In some eastern religions they use fasting and meditation and other methods to give them the same effects as one gets from the narcotics, so it does have a layer of legitimacy.

The thing about drugs is that is the easy way without the effort or the faith as the drugs are taking the spiritual artificially and by force.
Click to expand...

Revelation reads like a bad acid trip.
 
JP Cusick said:
The vast majority of humanity are lost and or misguided and or confused.
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They are not. A disbelief in your god is what they have. Millions of Hindus are not lost. Sweeping statements with no proof do not advance your argument one whit.
 
DifferentDrummr said:
There's a very real possibility that psychoactive mushrooms grew in the middle east during antiquity.
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I hope that is correct, and I see no problem with that.

The psychoactive drugs can be used for treating pain and for misery, along with being a way of connecting to the spiritual side.

I do not recommend using such drugs for that purpose, but I do not condemn those that do it, because that is better than nothing.



====================================



zyzygy said:
Revelation reads like a bad acid trip.
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I agree, as the book of Revelations is basically worthless and useless and harmful, and it is horrible how that one part of the Bible has mislead and confused so many people.

The central part of Revelations is an old document from John the Baptist and later the first 3 chapters were added to that document and the ending was added later too.

It is NOT that this info is not known because Christians know it and just deny the reality as if the Bible has to be some perfect idol which it is not.
 
JP Cusick said:
I hope that is correct, and I see no problem with that.

The psychoactive drugs can be used for treating pain and for misery, along with being a way of connecting to the spiritual side.

I do not recommend using such drugs for that purpose, but I do not condemn those that do it, because that is better than nothing.



====================================




I agree, as the book of Revelations is basically worthless and useless and harmful, and it is horrible how that one part of the Bible has mislead and confused so many people.

The central part of Revelations is an old document from John the Baptist and later the first 3 chapters were added to that document and the ending was added later too.

It is NOT that this info is not known because Christians know it and just deny the reality as if the Bible has to be some perfect idol which it is not.
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This is the first I've read of John the Baptist having any role in writing revelations.

Source?
 
Unrepresented said:
This is the first I've read of John the Baptist having any role in writing revelations.

Source?
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John the Baptist was decapitated in Herod's jail prior to Jesus being crucified. Perhaps he means John the disciple (John son of Zebedee) who also wrote the gospel of John?
 
Unrepresented said:
This is the first I've read of John the Baptist having any role in writing revelations.

Source?
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I looked for sources before I posted and the sources have been suppressed and deleted.

You can find it in older books on Biblical Criticism but I know that there are many aggressive Christians who seek out after any such book to get rid of them.

From about 1835 it started in Germany and slowly spread through all of Christendom and by 1970 the mainstream Christians had begun their aggressive work at silencing the "Scholarly Biblical Criticism" as it use to be called.

It use to be told in Wikipedia but that info has been removed from there too.

Sorry - no source.
 
Ockham said:
John the Baptist was decapitated in Herod's jail prior to Jesus being crucified. Perhaps he means John the disciple (John son of Zebedee) who also wrote the gospel of John?
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My reading has been that although attributed to John the apostle, it's likely not his work but an anonymous author much like the gospel authors.
 
Paschendale said:
Your example here of "springs of the sea" being some kind of prophecy about discovering things on the ocean floor is a very long stretch.
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:doh

I didn't say it's a prophecy about "discovering things on the ocean floor." :roll:

Wasn't the implication clear enough? Do I have to spell it out a letter at a time? Okay, here it is......


Why does the Bible know about any springs in the ocean?

Why does the Bible know how to describe and explain hydrology?


-----------------------------------------

Btw, when God formed man out of the dust from the ground - even IF this isn't taken literally - it still shows that the Christian God is the Creator.

Genesis 2:7
7 Then the LORD God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.


Genesis 3:19
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”



He knows what we're composed of.

The human body is comprised of some 28 base and trace elements which are all found in the earth.

Elements in the Human Body

--------------------------


Macroevolution has been debunked! Everything is all conjectures!

A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution!


James M Tour Group » Evolution/Creation



The Bible says God created life according to kinds. That agrees with what scientists observe – namely that there are horizontal genetic boundaries beyond which life cannot vary.
 
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Paschendale said:
Plus, you know, you're quoting part of Jewish scripture to justify Christianity. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, either.
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Of course, it wouldn't make any sense to you, because, obviously - by your own words - you know nothing of Christianity.

Probably you never even heard of Abrahamic religions.
 
tosca1 said:
Why does the Bible know about any springs in the ocean?
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It doesn't. It makes a vague poetic reference that you can read into based on your modern knowledge.

Why does the Bible know how to describe and explain hydrology?
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It doesn't. It makes a vague poetic reference that you can read into based on your modern knowledge.

Btw, when God formed man out of the dust from the ground - even IF this isn't taken literally - it still shows that the Christian God is the Creator.
Click to expand...

We aren't made of dust. We aren't even remotely made of dust. This myth is completely wrong. How can you think it is evidence of any god, let alone your god, who explicitly makes this claim about us being made of dust... which is completely wrong. It's not even correct in a poetic, allusion sense. It's just wrong.

Genesis 2:7
7 Then the LORD God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.


Genesis 3:19
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”



He knows what we're composed of.

The human body is comprised of some 28 base and trace elements which are all found in the earth.

Elements in the Human Body
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Everything is made from those elements. Water is made from those elements. Trees are made from those elements. Salt is made from those elements. You have reduced this statement to being so vague that it no longer matters.

Macroevolution has been debunked! Everything is all conjectures!

A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution!


James M Tour Group » Evolution/Creation

The Bible says God created life according to kinds. That agrees with what scientists observe – namely that there are horizontal genetic boundaries beyond which life cannot vary.
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Your world famous chemist is completely wrong. There are no such boundaries. If you're going to talk about science, please learn some of it first. There's nothing to discuss with a science denier.

And none of this addresses my question. Even if the bible had an extraordinary amount of correct and useful knowledge in it, which it does not, how would that prove anything about supernatural creatures, specifically gods? It doesn't. No moreso than the existence of England proves the existence of Hogwarts.
 
Paschendale said:
It doesn't. It makes a vague poetic reference that you can read into based on your modern knowledge.



It doesn't. It makes a vague poetic reference that you can read into based on your modern knowledge.



We aren't made of dust. We aren't even remotely made of dust. This myth is completely wrong. How can you think it is evidence of any god, let alone your god, who explicitly makes this claim about us being made of dust... which is completely wrong. It's not even correct in a poetic, allusion sense. It's just wrong.



Everything is made from those elements. Water is made from those elements. Trees are made from those elements. Salt is made from those elements. You have reduced this statement to being so vague that it no longer matters.



Your world famous chemist is completely wrong. There are no such boundaries. If you're going to talk about science, please learn some of it first. There's nothing to discuss with a science denier.

And none of this addresses my question. Even if the bible had an extraordinary amount of correct and useful knowledge in it, which it does not, how would that prove anything about supernatural creatures, specifically gods? It doesn't. No moreso than the existence of England proves the existence of Hogwarts.
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Sorry Paschendale, but I'm not going to debate your opinions. You've already shown how little you know about Christianity when you wondered why on earth I'm quoting from the Old Testament.
 
tosca1 said:
Sorry Paschendale, but I'm not going to debate your opinions.
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Because these aren't opinions. They're facts. Learn facts if you want to talk about reality.

tosca1 said:
Of course, it wouldn't make any sense to you, because, obviously - by your own words - you know nothing of Christianity.

Probably you never even heard of Abrahamic religions.
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I know a great deal about Christianity. As a secular American, statistically I should know more about it than you, a devout Christian. Moreso, I grew up Jewish. I know a lot about Judaism, and it constantly makes me laugh how often Christians bastardize Judaism in an attempt to justify their myths. American Christians know virtually nothing about Judaism, especially bible thumpers like yourself and Logicman.
 
Paschendale said:
Because these aren't opinions. They're facts. Learn facts if you want to talk about reality.

I know a great deal about Christianity. As a secular American, statistically I should know more about it than you, a devout Christian. Moreso, I grew up Jewish. I know a lot about Judaism, and it constantly makes me laugh how often Christians bastardize Judaism in an attempt to justify their myths. American Christians know virtually nothing about Judaism, especially bible thumpers like yourself and Logicman.
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No. Yours are merely opinion, and definitely not fact. I'm not surprised that the significance of what you describe as merely "poetic references," is lost to you, and to some other atheists on this board. All we have to do is review their responses and it's clear why they fail to grasp it. Some are perhaps just being wilfully blind, or obtuse. That wouldn't help either to have a proper discussion, will it?

If one will insist to make an argument based on ignorance - especially to "critique" the opponent's position - he/she shouldn't be surprised if he/she isn't taken seriously, or be ignored. Depending on how much a poster want to make a stand on a subject, at least have some basic understanding of it.


This statement you gave revealed just how much you know. Anyway, let me explain what gave you away:


Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
Plus, you know, you're quoting part of Jewish scripture to justify Christianity. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, either.
Click to expand...


If you know anything at all about Christianity - Jesus Christ and the New Testament - you wouldn't be surprised that I quote from the
Old Testament. You'd know that the New is the continuation of the Old, the fulfillment of the prophecy. They are intertwined. The Old prophesy about the coming Messiah all throughout the Old, and shows why there is the need for a Messiah. The Old is the historical background of Christianity.

If you know anything at all about Christianity, you'd also know that Jesus, and the Apostles have been quoting from the
Old Testament as well.
 
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tosca1 said:
Sorry Paschendale, but I'm not going to debate your opinions. You've already shown how little you know about Christianity when you wondered why on earth I'm quoting from the Old Testament.
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Retrofitting vague statements and predictions is just like Nostradamus. It's only after the fact that the connection is made. Hister (a local name for the Danube river) in one quatrain has a letter changed to become Nostradamus predicting the rise of Hitler. It's patently ridiculous to everyone but believers, who want it to be so, to validate their conviction. like wise ocean springs.
 
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