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We Don't Know

RAMOSS said:
to which the following question can be asked 'Why must there be an answer to why?
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There doesn't have to be a why, but I hope to God there is. It would make so much more sense. Without reason, it would seem very cruel indeed.
 
Cable said:
There doesn't have to be a why, but I hope to God there is. It would make so much more sense. Without reason, it would seem very cruel indeed.
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There is nothing wrong with hope. However, without any objective evidence there migtht not be God, or, if God does exist, his viewpoint might not agree with what you think it is.If you don't know for sure, is it a good idea to try to lure people away what might be the actual truth based on your private assumptions?
 
RAMOSS said:
There is nothing wrong with hope. However, without any objective evidence there migtht not be God, or, if God does exist, his viewpoint might not agree with what you think it is.If you don't know for sure, is it a good idea to try to lure people away what might be the actual truth based on your private assumptions?
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Any more yours?
 
Cable said:
Any more yours?
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I do not know if God, if he exists, has my viewpoint. Personally, I just like to debate.. and I like to find someone that actually make me think about what I believe.
 
RAMOSS said:
I do not know if God, if he exists, has my viewpoint. Personally, I just like to debate.. and I like to find someone that actually make me think about what I believe.
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Debate messages the ego, but leaves us empty. Rather look for truth.

19The woman saith to him, ‘Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet; 20our fathers in this mountain did worship, and ye — ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where it behoveth to worship.’ 21Jesus saith to her, ‘Woman, believe me, that there doth come an hour, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father; 22ye worship what ye have not known; we worship what we have known, because the salvation is of the Jews; 23but, there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him; 24God [is] a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.’
 
Cable said:
Debate messages the ego, but leaves us empty. Rather look for truth.

19The woman saith to him, ‘Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet; 20our fathers in this mountain did worship, and ye — ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where it behoveth to worship.’ 21Jesus saith to her, ‘Woman, believe me, that there doth come an hour, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father; 22ye worship what ye have not known; we worship what we have known, because the salvation is of the Jews; 23but, there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him; 24God [is] a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.’
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Yet, can you show that is, in reality, the truth? Or is that mindless rhetoric that is false?
 
The Baron said:

A) Those “famous dead” people I quoted founded this country and know extensively about its rich, Christian heritage.
B) 1. The Constitution did not found this country. The Declaration of Independence did and it does mention both God and His law.
C) 2. The Constitution itself has no less than eight references to the Bible! How do you not know this?
D) While I would not bother to argue that America is a Christian nation today, the evidence of the Christian heritage of this nation is overwhelming.
E) “Right-wing, Christian science”? What is that? And exactly who are the “science deniers who depend solely on their strict interpretation of the bible” and exactly how is the Bible a “myth”?

I can’t wait to hear this?
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A) I'm sure you believe they do but alas, I don't. So long as our legal system revolves around the Constitution and not quotes from long dead famous people, this is a secular nation.

B) I never heard of that before so I looked it up and lo and behold, it's some strange ideas the Heritage Foundation came up with. As no serious academic relies on the HF for their interpretation of law or constitutional matters (expect certain Christians), I can safely dismiss their perspective.

C) I do not know that because such a thing does not exist. The phrase "Year of our Lord," which is the only reference to God in the United States Constitution, was, of course, a standard eighteenth-century way of referencing the date. It reminds us that the Constitution was written in a different world than our own. Today we do not usually refer to the date this way. In the eighteenth century they did.

D) That's a "slippery slope" argument. I don't have the time to refute such people as self-proclaimed Christian historian David Barton, among others, who claim the US is a Christian nation. However, I can say that those who do believe that, are predisposed to the idea. They want to believe it so strongly that it ceases to be knowledge and becomes an article of their faith. Faith inherently does NOT require proof to sustain itself, therefor anyone who claims to have special or divine insights into matters associated with religion and a god, can sway those with a predilection towards faith, to believe anything they chose to say....including the myth that the US is a Christian.

If you want to believe that the US is a Christian nation or even a Satanic nation, it's fine by me. However, no matter how strong your faith is on this Christian nation topic, it doesn't square with reality and at least for me, is something I can freely reject as being false.

E) I picked up the phrase "Right Wing Science" from this article on "CounterPunch"; "Todd Akin and Rightwing Science - Pseudo-Science With a Religious Agenda". Now as to who these science deniers are but more importantly why they believe in such nonsense, I must take you to an academic paper entitled; Religious Fundamentalists’ Epistemic Beliefs And Relationships To Right-Wing Authoritarianism. It points out the incongruities and the false rationalizations of the far right Christian agenda.

Discussions and arguments with a person who fervently and devoutly accepts such things as a Christian nation or biblical science (however you want to call it) is an exercise in futility. As the saying goes, I can only show you to the door to knowledge...you have to walk in on your own accord. Faith can be rational or irrational. I'll let you figure out where I stand on that issue.
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I picked up the phrase "Right Wing Science" from this article on "CounterPunch"...
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What a surprise....
 
RAMOSS said:
Yet, can you show that is, in reality, the truth? Or is that mindless rhetoric that is false?
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It is roughly the same question Pilot asked of Jesus. The good news is you get to decide for yourself. The bad news is that your decision has eternal repercussions, right or wrong.

Can you read the words of Christ and believe that he was a fool, an idiot, or insane?
Can you read the words of those who believed and were beaten, jailed, and finally crucified over Christs words because they believed?
They had nothing worldly to gain from that path. They certainly believed with all of their being that Christ was truth, just as he said he was.
 
Cable said:
It is roughly the same question Pilot asked of Jesus. The good news is you get to decide for yourself. The bad news is that your decision has eternal repercussions, right or wrong.

Can you read the words of Christ and believe that he was a fool, an idiot, or insane?
Can you read the words of those who believed and were beaten, jailed, and finally crucified over Christs words because they believed?
They had nothing worldly to gain from that path. They certainly believed with all of their being that Christ was truth, just as he said he was.
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Ah yes, the false trichotomy of C.S. Lewis. There are many rumor and legends about 'beaten jailed and finally crucified'. They all come from believers trying to make other people believe.

There is also the possibility that Jesus was lied about, was mistaken, and was misinterpreted. As for the belief, well, people do all sorts of things when they believe, it doesn't mean they are RIGHT'. 12 folks did evil in the name of their belief in 2001. In 1999, some people killed themselves to be with their leader on a space ship following a comet. It doesn't mean they are anything but dead.
 
Cable said:
It is roughly the same question Pilot asked of Jesus. The good news is you get to decide for yourself. The bad news is that your decision has eternal repercussions, right or wrong.

Can you read the words of Christ and believe that he was a fool, an idiot, or insane?
Can you read the words of those who believed and were beaten, jailed, and finally crucified over Christs words because they believed?
They had nothing worldly to gain from that path. They certainly believed with all of their being that Christ was truth, just as he said he was.
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The story of Jesus could be fictional. Plenty of people have died for one god or another throughout history. Does that mean that all gods exist?
 
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RAMOSS said:
Ah yes, the false trichotomy of C.S. Lewis. There are many rumor and legends about 'beaten jailed and finally crucified'. They all come from believers trying to make other people believe.

There is also the possibility that Jesus was lied about, was mistaken, and was misinterpreted. As for the belief, well, people do all sorts of things when they believe, it doesn't mean they are RIGHT'. 12 folks did evil in the name of their belief in 2001. In 1999, some people killed themselves to be with their leader on a space ship following a comet. It doesn't mean they are anything but dead.
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I can't help but notice in yours and zyzygy's responses you focus on the "what if he was really a myth" line of reasoning and ignore my question primary question: Can you read the words of Christ and believe that he was a fool, an idiot, or insane?
 
Cable said:
I can't help but notice in yours and zyzygy's responses you focus on the "what if he was really a myth" line of reasoning and ignore my question primary question: Can you read the words of Christ and believe that he was a fool, an idiot, or insane?
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I would have to know if he ever existed before I answer that. Otherwise it would be like taking Gandalf's words seriously.
 

Paxaeon said:
A) I'm sure you believe they do but alas, I don't. So long as our legal system revolves around the Constitution and not quotes from long dead famous people, this is a secular nation.
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You will recall that you said…

Paxaeon said:
For example, the myth that the US is a Christian nation is an anathema to me…which I strenuously object to in public schools.
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As demonstrated, America was founded as a Christian nation and, as such, our history and heritage should be taught in schools.

Paxaeon said:
B) I never heard of that before so I looked it up and lo and behold, it's some strange ideas the Heritage Foundation came up with. As no serious academic relies on the HF for their interpretation of law or constitutional matters (expect certain Christians), I can safely dismiss their perspective.
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1. I’ve never seen this article from the Heritage Foundation before nor do I follow the Heritage Foundation.

2. That the Declaration of Independence is our founding document is a fact independent of the Heritage Foundation or anyone else.

3. You may wish to consider that the American Revolution began in 1775 to eventually secure our independence from Britain and the Declaration of Independence was actually signed a year later to declare our independence from Great Britain and to justify our grievances.

4. You may further wish to consider that we celebrate America’s birthday (Independence Day) on July 4th each year. Oddly that would be the same date that the Declaration of Independence was signed…not the Constitution.

Paxaeon said:
C) I do not know that because such a thing does not exist. The phrase "Year of our Lord," which is the only reference to God in the United States Constitution, was, of course, a standard eighteenth-century way of referencing the date. It reminds us that the Constitution was written in a different world than our own. Today we do not usually refer to the date this way. In the eighteenth century they did.
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I never said it referenced God. I said it referenced the Bible. More specifically, certain precepts of the Bible are incorporated into our Constitution / government and include:

1. Deuteronomy 17:15

“be sure to appoint over you a king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite.”

It was from this verse that the Founding Fathers justified ensuring that only natural born Americans could hold the office of President.

US Constitution Article 2 Section 1

“…No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President…”

2. Deuteronomy 17:6

“On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.”

US Constitution Article 3 Section 3

“…No Person shall be convicted of Treason (a capital offense) unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court….”

3. Ezekiel 18:20

“The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”

In other words, the children can’t be held accountable for the sins of the father.

US Constitution Article 3 Section 3

“The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.”

Part I of IV​
 
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Part II of IV​

4. Isaiah 33:22

“For the LORD is our judge, (Judicial Branch)
the LORD is our lawgiver, (Legislative Branch)
the LORD is our king; (Executive Branch)
it is he who will save us.”

It is from this verse that we get our three equal but separate branches of government.

5. Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

This is the verse the Founders utilized to justify three separate branches of government.

6. Ezra 7:24

“You are also to know that you have no authority to impose taxes, tribute or duty on any of the priests, Levites, musicians, gatekeepers, temple servants or other workers at this house of God.”

This is why our churches are tax exempt.

7. Exodus 18:21

“But select capable men from all the people—men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain—and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens.”

It is from this verse that the Founders justified the creation of a Republican form of government.

US Constitution Article 4 Section 4

“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government…”

8. Leviticus 19:34

“The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.”

Foreigners were to be treated the same as native-born citizens or, in other words, to treat them “uniformly”.

US Constitution Article 1 Section 8 Clause 4

“To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization…”
 
Part III of IV​
Paxaeon said:
D) That's a "slippery slope" argument.
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Really? How?

Paxaeon said:
I don't have the time to refute such people as self-proclaimed Christian historian David Barton, among others, who claim the US is a Christian nation.
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Nobody’s claimed that America--today--is a Christian nation. Was America founded as a Christian nation? Absolutely yes. The evidence is overwhelming--some of which I have already linked to earlier for your benefit and education.

And exactly what have you against David Barton? I suspect that it is nothing more than the fact that he is a Christian. But do tell, outside of being a Christian has he misrepresented our history in some way? Has he been proven a unremitting liar? Exactly what has he done to be singled out for your contempt?

Paxaeon said:
However, I can say that those who do believe that, are predisposed to the idea.
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And what evidence do you have for such an allegation? And do you have any evidence that you are not predisposed to the idea of an atheistic / non-religious founding of this country (assuming that’s what you believe)?

Paxaeon said:
They want to believe it so strongly that it ceases to be knowledge and becomes an article of their faith.
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The evidence I linked you to earlier was simply that--evidence. It did not require any faith on my part to present the Christian view of our Founding Fathers to you. It simply exists whether I--or you--believe it or not.

Paxaeon said:
Faith inherently does NOT require proof to sustain itself, therefor anyone who claims to have special or divine insights into matters associated with religion and a god, can sway those with a predilection towards faith, to believe anything they chose to say....including the myth that the US is a Christian.
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1. Faith is a product of evidence--not a lack of it. I have faith that the sky is blue because I can look and see it is blue. I have faith that the foundation of the country was grounded in Christianity simply because the men who founded this country said so. As such, the evidence has created my faith. My faith could not exist without the evidence.

2. Nobody has said that the founding of this country was based upon “special or divine insights”. All you need to do is study our history to see that it is based upon Christianity. I’ve already provided you the link and you have ignored it to the peril of your argument.

Paxaeon said:
If you want to believe that the US is a Christian nation or even a Satanic nation, it's fine by me.
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Really!? And why is that? I would want my children to know their true heritage and history and not simply the history they “choose” to believe.

Does the truth mean nothing to you?

Paxaeon said:
However, no matter how strong your faith is on this Christian nation topic, it doesn't square with reality…
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Actually, it’s your ideas of this country’s history and heritage that does not “square with reality”. The evidence of our Christian heritage is irrefutable.

Paxaeon said:
…and at least for me, is something I can freely reject as being false.
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Does the truth mean nothing to you?

Paxaeon said:
E) I picked up the phrase "Right Wing Science" from this article on "CounterPunch"; "Todd Akin and Rightwing Science - Pseudo-Science With a Religious Agenda".
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Your basing your idea that “right-wingers” are “pseudo scientific” because some idiot said that raped women can’t get pregnant!?

Just because this Akin guy is an idiot doesn’t mean you have to go out of your way to prove yourself an idiot, as well.
 
Part IV of IV​
Paxaeon said:
Now as to who these science deniers are but more importantly why they believe in such nonsense, I must take you to an academic paper entitled; Religious Fundamentalists’ Epistemic Beliefs And Relationships To Right-Wing Authoritarianism. It points out the incongruities and the false rationalizations of the far right Christian agenda.
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I’m not reading a 98 page thesis because you’re incapable of supporting your own views.

However, if you have the idea that somehow Christianity and science are mutually exclusive then you will want to explain how someone like the Director of the Human Genome project, Francis Collins, could ever be a Christian. And not simply Mr. Collins, but Nobel Laureate Professor Bill Phillips, Oxford Professor and Science Philosopher Alister McGrath, Oxford Professor / Mathematician / Science Philosopher John Lennox, Sir Brian Heap FRS and former Vice-President of the Royal Society, Sir John Houghton FRS and former Director of the British Meteorological Office and co-Chair of the Intergovernmental Panel of Climate Change and Director of the John Ray Initiative on the Environment to name only a few. And how do you explain someone like David Berlinski who is a self-described secular Jew but rejects the New Atheist view of science?

That these are just simply a few modern day scientist! What of Galileo, Kepler, Pacal, Boyle, Newton, Faraday, Babbage, Mendel, Pasteur, Kelvin and Clerk Maxwell? All were theist and most of these guys were Christian.

Point of fact, we have modern science today because of Christianity. Men read in the Bible that God was not a God of disorder and reasoned that if He was not a God of disorder then He must be a God of order. And if he is a God or order then His Creation must be ordered. And if His Creation is ordered then it can be studied and understood and prediction made about it and then--before you knew it--Boom! The scientific revolution was born! That’s why all the earliest scientist were Christian and also explains why you rarely ever see any scientific breakthroughs in countries that did not have a Judeo-Christian ethic.

Paxaeon said:
Discussions and arguments with a person who fervently and devoutly accepts such things as a Christian nation or biblical science (however you want to call it) is an exercise in futility.
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Is it? I wouldn’t know. I do know that this “discussion” or “argument” with me could hardly be considered an “exercise in futility” for you. For that to be possible you would have to present a compelling case based on the available evidence and you have yet to do that.

Paxaeon said:
As the saying goes, I can only show you to the door to knowledge...
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Honestly, my dear, I don’t believe you capable of even that much.
 
The Baron said:
Part IV of IV​
I’m not reading a 98 page thesis because you’re incapable of supporting your own views.
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A) All that just to say you're incapable of reading.

B) Speaking of reading, I bypassed all your posts. I haven't the time to spend on your xtain nonsense.

You see, there is no debate here, no discussion. What you are doing is the equivalent of throwing sheet at a wall to see what sticks. Bible quotes mean nothing to me and your distorted idea of history might set humankind back a thousand years.

So take it from me bub, go peddle your delusions to some who cares...I don't and I firmly reject your so-called proof as indicative to a troubled soul....metaphorically speaking.
 
zyzygy said:
I would have to know if he ever existed before I answer that. Otherwise it would be like taking Gandalf's words seriously.
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He did. Come tell us what you think after you are done reading.
 
Paxaeon said:
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A) All that just to say you're incapable of reading.

B) Speaking of reading, I bypassed all your posts. I haven't the time to spend on your xtain nonsense.

You see, there is no debate here, no discussion. What you are doing is the equivalent of throwing sheet at a wall to see what sticks. Bible quotes mean nothing to me and your distorted idea of history might set humankind back a thousand years.

So take it from me bub, go peddle your delusions to some who cares...I don't and I firmly reject your so-called proof as indicative to a troubled soul....metaphorically speaking.
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You say that as though we've made some kind of progress in the last 1000 years.....
 
Cable said:
You say that as though we've made some kind of progress in the last 1000 years.....
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Who's we? You have a hamster in your pocket? Religion has taken a sharp decline in America, partly because of the christian evangelical hypocrisy. My opinion is that one of the greatest threats to our liberty and freedom comes from the religious or Christian right, who seek to enforce their archaic beliefs upon America. In their distorted view, the US was and is a Christian nation and the laws must be changed or modified to reflect this so-called heritage. It is already causing the decline of what used to be a great nation.
 
Paxaeon said:
`
Who's we? You have a hamster in your pocket? Religion has taken a sharp decline in America, partly because of the christian evangelical hypocrisy. My opinion is that one of the greatest threats to our liberty and freedom comes from the religious or Christian right, who seek to enforce their archaic beliefs upon America. In their distorted view, the US was and is a Christian nation and the laws must be changed or modified to reflect this so-called heritage. It is already causing the decline of what used to be a great nation.
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You are correct about the Christian right. Their version of freedom of religion does not include the freedom not to have a religion.
 
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