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The burden of proof

stonewall50 said:
I'm still wondering what was borrowed and stolen. Since that wasn't about that.
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The story of Noah comes to mind. And the virgin birth on 25 December, borrowed from the Mithras myth.
 
zyzygy said:
The story of Noah comes to mind. And the virgin birth on 25 December, borrowed from the Mithras myth.
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The 25th was chosen at random.The Bible doesn't claim that Jesus is born on 25th.that would make sense. The calendar was not the same back then.

And do you have evidence of these two claims? Or is this conjecture? Remember I'm not really disputing whether or not the Bible is true. I know that is a bad argument. I can't prove anything in it. I accept it on faith. My argument is about whether not you can prove that the Arguments were borrowed or stolen.
 
stonewall50 said:
I'm still wondering what was borrowed and stolen. Since that wasn't about that.
Click to expand...

zyzygy said:
The story of Noah comes to mind. And the virgin birth on 25 December, borrowed from the Mithras myth.
Click to expand...

The concept of Jesus as the LOGOS was taken from the writings of the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria (c. 25 BCE - c. 50 CE).
 
stonewall50 said:
The 25th was chosen at random.The Bible doesn't claim that Jesus is born on 25th.that would make sense.
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It's not random, it was a Pagan holiday.
 
stonewall50 said:
The 25th was chosen at random.The Bible doesn't claim that Jesus is born on 25th.that would make sense. The calendar was not the same back then.

And do you have evidence of these two claims? Or is this conjecture? Remember I'm not really disputing whether or not the Bible is true. I know that is a bad argument. I can't prove anything in it. I accept it on faith. My argument is about whether not you can prove that the Arguments were borrowed or stolen.
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I am not really interested in discussing which bits of fiction that fictional books stole from each other.
 
Ikari said:
It's not random, it was a Pagan holiday.
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Correct. It was to usurp the pagan Yule feast on the principle of if you can't beat them, join them. The feast of Eostre was made into Easter. There is not much that was new in Christianty.
 
stonewall50 said:
The 25th was chosen at random.The Bible doesn't claim that Jesus is born on 25th.that would make sense. The calendar was not the same back then.

And do you have evidence of these two claims? Or is this conjecture? Remember I'm not really disputing whether or not the Bible is true. I know that is a bad argument. I can't prove anything in it. I accept it on faith. My argument is about whether not you can prove that the Arguments were borrowed or stolen.
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"We’ve known since at least 1872 that the Great Flood detailed in Genesis is a descendant of earlier flood myths from Mesopotamia."

Really need to do a bit of reading about the faith you profess.

December 25th was not chosen at random. The majority opinion falls in the "pagans are already celebrating the solstice with related deities on the day, so why not us Xtians join in and show them our God is really the one being celebrated", a more recent opinion ties December 25th to the supposed date of the crucifixion -- that is nine months earlier. What became a heretical sect of Xtianity, the Donatists in North Africa, were celebrating the Birth on Dec 25th as early as c. 200 CE.

The pagan trappings of the Xmas we all know are almost certainly a direct result of letters from Pope Gregory the Great (c. 600 CE) to missionaries advising them to co-opt the temples and sacred places of pagans and turn them into churches while adopting pagan celebrations as holidays of the saints and martyrs.

Basically, we really don't know because the Church right up to the Renaissance either deliberately destroyed or simply threw out with the trash, any and all conflicting texts. The Nag Hammadi documents were buried by an Egyptian monk who had been ordered to destroy them as they were not acceptable doctrine.
 
Somerville said:
"We’ve known since at least 1872 that the Great Flood detailed in Genesis is a descendant of earlier flood myths from Mesopotamia."

Really need to do a bit of reading about the faith you profess.

December 25th was not chosen at random. The majority opinion falls in the "pagans are already celebrating the solstice with related deities on the day, so why not us Xtians join in and show them our God is really the one being celebrated", a more recent opinion ties December 25th to the supposed date of the crucifixion -- that is nine months earlier. What became a heretical sect of Xtianity, the Donatists in North Africa, were celebrating the Birth on Dec 25th as early as c. 200 CE.

The pagan trappings of the Xmas we all know are almost certainly a direct result of letters from Pope Gregory the Great (c. 600 CE) to missionaries advising them to co-opt the temples and sacred places of pagans and turn them into churches while adopting pagan celebrations as holidays of the saints and martyrs.

Basically, we really don't know because the Church right up to the Renaissance either deliberately destroyed or simply threw out with the trash, any and all conflicting texts. The Nag Hammadi documents were buried by an Egyptian monk who had been ordered to destroy them as they were not acceptable doctrine.
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There is a reason why many old churches in Britain are built on pre-Christian sites.
 
Somerville said:
"We’ve known since at least 1872 that the Great Flood detailed in Genesis is a descendant of earlier flood myths from Mesopotamia."

Really need to do a bit of reading about the faith you profess.

December 25th was not chosen at random. The majority opinion falls in the "pagans are already celebrating the solstice with related deities on the day, so why not us Xtians join in and show them our God is really the one being celebrated", a more recent opinion ties December 25th to the supposed date of the crucifixion -- that is nine months earlier. What became a heretical sect of Xtianity, the Donatists in North Africa, were celebrating the Birth on Dec 25th as early as c. 200 CE.

The pagan trappings of the Xmas we all know are almost certainly a direct result of letters from Pope Gregory the Great (c. 600 CE) to missionaries advising them to co-opt the temples and sacred places of pagans and turn them into churches while adopting pagan celebrations as holidays of the saints and martyrs.

Basically, we really don't know because the Church right up to the Renaissance either deliberately destroyed or simply threw out with the trash, any and all conflicting texts. The Nag Hammadi documents were buried by an Egyptian monk who had been ordered to destroy them as they were not acceptable doctrine.
Click to expand...

So in a political move the Pope decides to box out the pagans. And? This is proof of what? Political power moves by early Christians. I actually was well aware that it was picked because of some pagan something or other, but since I wasn't certain I figured I would be better off not making the claim incorrectly.

It doesn't matter anyway ;)
 
zyzygy said:
I am not really interested in discussing which bits of fiction that fictional books stole from each other.
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No. You just want to make the claim and not provide the evidence. ;) it seems you were upset at someone for doing the same?
 
stonewall50 said:
So in a political move the Pope decides to box out the pagans. And? This is proof of what? Political power moves by early Christians. I actually was well aware that it was picked because of some pagan something or other, but since I wasn't certain I figured I would be better off not making the claim incorrectly.
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Some people use the relatively slow spread of Christianity to try and prove the existence of the magic Jesus. Taking over pagan feasts was a part of the agenda.
 
zyzygy said:
The story of Noah comes to mind. And the virgin birth on 25 December, borrowed from the Mithras myth.
Click to expand...

It actually was put there to replace sol invictus, which was put there in 274 by Emperor Aurelian to worship the sun God. It was replace by Constantine to worship the son of God. Because of calender drift, it used to be that Dec 25th fell on the solstice.

I don't think it can be shown to be actually copied from any place in specific , except that the longest night of the year, followed by the returning of longer days is a powerful symbol, particularly for people who where scientifically naive. It doesn't have to be a copy, but rather reacting to the same circumstances.
 
RAMOSS said:
It actually was put there to replace sol invictus, which was put there in 274 by Emperor Aurelian to worship the sun God. It was replace by Constantine to worship the son of God. Because of calender drift, it used to be that Dec 25th fell on the solstice.
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Thank you for replying to a post of mine with some actual information. Very refreshing.
 
I just stumbled onto this short clip - most of the questions asked are reminiscent of the arguments some atheists posters had used.
I just want to share them for those who are interested. The titles of the videos may offend some....just reminding you I have no control over those.



 
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