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Expropriate Forrest Gump!

If you don't know what it is, how do you know it's only worked in small tribes? What I advocate is an end to permanent property. As permanently owning something is equivalent to holding all future tenancies in it, and collectivism doesn't necessarily abolish tenancy, clearly no motivation is lost by merely abolishing permanent property. To go back to Gump, if he'd rented the shrimp boat, he would not have unjustly benefitted from the storm, because the rent on it would have gone up as a result of the decrease in the quantity of shrimp boats; on the other hand, the hapless intelligent shrimp boat-owners would not have unduly suffered, for they would have, likewise, invested only the last rent payment. In short, collectivism is a meritocratic distribution, and capitalism is an ever-increasingly random distribution.

one of the problems, though, is that when nothing is really owned, the upkeep isn't done. have you ever been a landlord? renters often leave the apartment in worse shape then they found it or at best just don't do any work on it. eliminating property ownership wouldn't solve the problem anyway. it would just mean that everything would be owned by the government, which would mean that it would be owned by the ruling elite. pretty much like it is now, except everyone would be renting their homes instead of owning them.

this sort of thing works in small tribes because if you slack off and do nothing, you're immediately accountable to everyone around you. people will generally do the least that they possibly can for the most that they can get out of it. also, people are greedy. when it isn't about money anymore, it becomes about climbing the party ladder and getting goods that way. we're just not advanced yet as a species or as a society for any collectivist or communist system to work on the nation scale. every time they try it, the result is the same. our best bet is to build a conscience into capitalism through regulation, adding a third goal. right now, the goals are profit and growth. the third goal should be providing the highest standard of living for the greatest number of people and helping them to pull themselves up the ladder. some on the left will be pissed that it isn't enough, and others on the right will go into a foaming rage about socialism, but this is probably the best that we can do at this point in human and societal evolution.
 
Furthermore, Forest Gump earned his way to riches with his labor on the shrimp boat. He not join up with some collective and reach his goals. Forest Gump is an absolutely terrible example to use towards collectivist goals since it pretty much expresses the power of individualism and capitalism.

IIRC he earned his fortune investing in Apple Computers because he thought it was a company that grew apples.
 
Slow, yes. Retarded, maybe. Braces on his legs. But he charmed the pants off Nixon and won a ping-pong competition. That ain't retarded.

Quite right. It's fictional.
 
one of the problems, though, is that when nothing is really owned, the upkeep isn't done. have you ever been a landlord? renters often leave the apartment in worse shape then they found it or at best just don't do any work on it. eliminating property ownership wouldn't solve the problem anyway. it would just mean that everything would be owned by the government, which would mean that it would be owned by the ruling elite. pretty much like it is now, except everyone would be renting their homes instead of owning them.

Most people already rent their homes, from the ruling elite called landlords; thus, even if a lessor state were more necessarily tyrannical than a regulatory/welfare state, and you've made no argument to that effect that rises above the tedious reductio ad Stalinum, we'd be no worse than when we started. But in fact we've already seen the state, in this country, sell property and buy improvements thereto. And though the state in this country is quite corrupt, though it is your theoretically benevolent regulatory/welfare state, we can discern certain forms of exchange (e.g. auction) that even a regulatory/welfare state cannot spoil. As for what motivates the tenant not to ruin the home, the democratic lessor could of course employ any of the means the current, autocratic lessors do: liability, security deposit, screening.

this sort of thing works in small tribes because if you slack off and do nothing, you're immediately accountable to everyone around you. people will generally do the least that they possibly can for the most that they can get out of it. also, people are greedy. when it isn't about money anymore, it becomes about climbing the party ladder and getting goods that way. we're just not advanced yet as a species or as a society for any collectivist or communist system to work on the nation scale. every time they try it, the result is the same. our best bet is to build a conscience into capitalism through regulation, adding a third goal. right now, the goals are profit and growth. the third goal should be providing the highest standard of living for the greatest number of people and helping them to pull themselves up the ladder. some on the left will be pissed that it isn't enough, and others on the right will go into a foaming rage about socialism, but this is probably the best that we can do at this point in human and societal evolution.

Just when I think you're getting the picture, you go back to confusing collectivism with communism and communism with nominally communist states. A state does not earn the title “communist” when it institutes a sufficient amount of communist reform; it is “communist” at once, if that is the ideology of the revolution, regardless of policy, and no amount of communist reform can earn a non-revolutionary state that title.

And of course, in the short term, I'm not advocating communism, at least not communist rationing, by which one can slack off without consequence for one's consumption. Collectivism equally distributes capital, not wages. Thus, while people who currently do not share in the cultural heritage would finally get their due and thus not have to work quite as much (though, even in the case of the basic income, the more egalitarian variant, I see no evidence that its reduction of labor contribution is greater than the elasticity of the essentials you want to subsidize; for example, in the Namibian experiment, it actually increased labor contribution), those who currently draw more than their fair share of rent would be under correspondingly increased pressure to work.

IIRC he earned his fortune investing in Apple Computers because he thought it was a company that grew apples.

Close, but even in film, investors never get lucky. It was Lt. Dan, presumably predicting the iPod.
 
Monopoly's only relationship to inefficiency is its ability to increase price without losing customers to competitors. Without the incentive to do so, that ability is irrelevant. When the monopoly is owned by its customers, the incentive isn't there.

That is not the only relationship to inefficiency.
As long as the monopoly stays a monopoly, the quality of labor and it's goods become meaningless.
 
Most people already rent their homes, from the ruling elite called landlords; thus, even if a lessor state were more necessarily tyrannical than a regulatory/welfare state, and you've made no argument to that effect that rises above the tedious reductio ad Stalinum, we'd be no worse than when we started. But in fact we've already seen the state, in this country, sell property and buy improvements thereto. And though the state in this country is quite corrupt, though it is your theoretically benevolent regulatory/welfare state, we can discern certain forms of exchange (e.g. auction) that even a regulatory/welfare state cannot spoil. As for what motivates the tenant not to ruin the home, the democratic lessor could of course employ any of the means the current, autocratic lessors do: liability, security deposit, screening.

we can't. all we can do short term is to regulate a conscience into capitalism. someday when humans and society have evolved, we may be able to get there, though.


Just when I think you're getting the picture, you go back to confusing collectivism with communism and communism with nominally communist states. A state does not earn the title “communist” when it institutes a sufficient amount of communist reform; it is “communist” at once, if that is the ideology of the revolution, regardless of policy, and no amount of communist reform can earn a non-revolutionary state that title.

neither would work better right now for the reasons that i've already explained.

And of course, in the short term, I'm not advocating communism, at least not communist rationing, by which one can slack off without consequence for one's consumption. Collectivism equally distributes capital, not wages. Thus, while people who currently do not share in the cultural heritage would finally get their due and thus not have to work quite as much (though, even in the case of the basic income, the more egalitarian variant, I see no evidence that its reduction of labor contribution is greater than the elasticity of the essentials you want to subsidize; for example, in the Namibian experiment, it actually increased labor contribution), those who currently draw more than their fair share of rent would be under correspondingly increased pressure to work.

you'd basically be replacing the tiny percentage of rich dudes who control most of the money with a tiny percentage of government officials who control most of the resources. that might sound jaded, but that's what always happens. however, it's not an either / or false dichotomy. there are all kinds of ways we can tweak the system to help it evolve into something more like what you're talking about. it's just going to take a lot of time.
 
That is not the only relationship to inefficiency.
As long as the monopoly stays a monopoly, the quality of labor and it's goods become meaningless.

If it were more profitable to produce lower-quality goods, it would do that even in competition. In fact, it would be even more beneficial in competition, because it would differentiate its products from the higher quality, higher price products of other sellers.

we can't. all we can do short term is to regulate a conscience into capitalism. someday when humans and society have evolved, we may be able to get there, though.

Evolved from what? The species that is selfish except for automatic obedience to and altruistic regulation of property exists only in abstract economic models.

you'd basically be replacing the tiny percentage of rich dudes who control most of the money with a tiny percentage of government officials who control most of the resources. that might sound jaded, but that's what always happens. however, it's not an either / or false dichotomy. there are all kinds of ways we can tweak the system to help it evolve into something more like what you're talking about. it's just going to take a lot of time.

We don't have a lot of time. Climate change changes everything. Those who enforce and pretend to regulate capitalism have proven themselves unable to deal with it otherwise than rhetorically. So if collectivism really necessitated a ruling elite, it would be insane not to change our allegiance to that ruling elite. As for the premise that collectivism necessitates a ruling elite, of course I don't consider you jaded for having it. Jadedness implies experience, and you have none, your premise but a mantra. Or, if you are jaded about collectivism, though your experience with it began when I answered you what it is, that jadedness is clearly no reflection on your general personality, balanced as it is by an innocent optimism that those who preside over a random distribution of dead labor will use their power only to bestow it with a conscience.
 
Evolved from what? The species that is selfish except for automatic obedience to and altruistic regulation of property exists only in abstract economic models.

evolve to behave a little less like a hoarding primate. and at the societal level, evolve to be much less tribal.

We don't have a lot of time. Climate change changes everything. Those who enforce and pretend to regulate capitalism have proven themselves unable to deal with it otherwise than rhetorically. So if collectivism really necessitated a ruling elite, it would be insane not to change our allegiance to that ruling elite. As for the premise that collectivism necessitates a ruling elite, of course I don't consider you jaded for having it. Jadedness implies experience, and you have none, your premise but a mantra. Or, if you are jaded about collectivism, though your experience with it began when I answered you what it is, that jadedness is clearly no reflection on your general personality, balanced as it is by an innocent optimism that those who preside over a random distribution of dead labor will use their power only to bestow it with a conscience.

i doubt that climate change is going to kill us all off short term. the big danger is war or the consequences of overpopulation, and even those wouldn't kill off all of humanity. they could seriously send us into the next dark ages, though.

as for collectivism or other similar systems, the only way to get there is via a series of small steps. this evolution won't be a quick one, and if it is, it's going to look just like capitalism except with different ways to hoard resources.
 
evolve to behave a little less like a hoarding primate. and at the societal level, evolve to be much less tribal.

Primates don't normally hoard, rodents do. As for tribalism, how is that any more of a problem for collectivism than capitalism? Doesn't capitalism, after all, exploit tribalism every time there appears to be a dollar to be made from protection? Globally, there is a positive correlation between tax revenue (%GDP) and foreign trade, so even if collectivism really meant bigger government, tribalism apparently wouldn't especially be an issue. But in fact collectivism just means different government. If you must look at it as government ownership, instead of government facilitation, then look at it as government ownership of specifically dead labor; your regulator government owns both dead and living labor, for example by imposing both direct and indirect taxes.

i doubt that climate change is going to kill us all off short term. the big danger is war or the consequences of overpopulation, and even those wouldn't kill off all of humanity. they could seriously send us into the next dark ages, though.

I didn't mean we don't have a lot of time before we go extinct; I meant we don't have a lot of time before the projected consequences of anything close to the status quo have exceeded, for example, whatever you imagine the consequences of rapid political economic change to be.

as for collectivism or other similar systems, the only way to get there is via a series of small steps. this evolution won't be a quick one, and if it is, it's going to look just like capitalism except with different ways to hoard resources.

Explain that; how would the rapidity of the change result in whatever is meant by “different ways to hoard resources”?
 
Primates don't normally hoard, rodents do.

have you watched TLC lately? lol

seriously, though, we're programmed to seek wealth and status so that we can pass our genes on more effectively. the desire to reproduce is one trait that is pretty much ubiquitous between all species. and that desire for wealth and power is what corrupts potential solutions that look great in theory. you have to take that into account, or your theory will never work in practice.

As for tribalism, how is that any more of a problem for collectivism than capitalism? Doesn't capitalism, after all, exploit tribalism every time there appears to be a dollar to be made from protection? Globally, there is a positive correlation between tax revenue (%GDP) and foreign trade, so even if collectivism really meant bigger government, tribalism apparently wouldn't especially be an issue. But in fact collectivism just means different government. If you must look at it as government ownership, instead of government facilitation, then look at it as government ownership of specifically dead labor; your regulator government owns both dead and living labor, for example by imposing both direct and indirect taxes.

solutions which don't fully take human greed into account will probably fail at this point in evolution. capitalism works because it depends on greed. what we need to do is to force capitalism to have a conscience.

I didn't mean we don't have a lot of time before we go extinct; I meant we don't have a lot of time before the projected consequences of anything close to the status quo have exceeded, for example, whatever you imagine the consequences of rapid political economic change to be.

Explain that; how would the rapidity of the change result in whatever is meant by “different ways to hoard resources”?

a revolution or rapid change would just result in new power players gaming the new system. best way to do it is one step at a time. i think that we can seriously improve the system, but it's going to take time.
 
a revolution or rapid change would just result in new power players gaming the new system. best way to do it is one step at a time. i think that we can seriously improve the system, but it's going to take time.

That's not an explanation, it's reassertion. Do you have an explanation, or is it an article of faith?
 
Furthermore, Forest Gump earned his way to riches with his labor on the shrimp boat. He not join up with some collective and reach his goals. Forest Gump is an absolutely terrible example to use towards collectivist goals since it pretty much expresses the power of individualism and capitalism.

Except that a real forrest gump, being retarded, could not have accomplished anything that he did in that movie. He just lucked his way into everything, and wouldn't know the first thing about capitalist enterprise. This notion that people always earn wealth and the sky's the limit for everyone is what's terrible

I found it a charming movie, but not inspirational since pretty much every moment from his leg braces coming off to the end is completely impossible
 
God enabled Forrest to succeed. From the film:

[Forrest empties the net with their "catch" and debris falls to the deck]
Forrest Gump: Still no shrimp, Lieutenant Dan.
Lt. Dan Taylor: Okay, so I was wrong.
Forrest Gump: Well, how are we going to find them?
Lt. Dan Taylor: Well, maybe you should just pray for shrimp.
Forrest Gump: [voice over] So I went to church every Sunday. Sometimes Lieutenant Dan came too, though I think he left the praying up to me.
[another catch of junk is dumped onto the deck]
Forrest Gump: [dejected] No shrimp.
Lt. Dan Taylor: Where the hell's this God of yours?
Forrest Gump: [voice over] It's funny Lieutenant Dan said that, 'cause right then God showed up.


Praise the Lord!!

Yeah, since the retard said so it must be true

Even though god hates the rich, like forrest gump became - "easier for a camel....than for a rich man to inherit the kingdom"
 
Yeah, since the retard said so it must be true

Even though god hates the rich, like forrest gump became - "easier for a camel....than for a rich man to inherit the kingdom"

Tsk tsk...

God made Solomon rich. He blessed Abraham, Job, and others with great wealth.

So your lesson today is to learn that God doesn't necessarily hate the rich. He despises lovers of money, who place riches above the love for God and one's fellow man.

"The LOVE of money is the root of evil."

There. So go your way now and read your Bible.
 
Tsk tsk...

God made Solomon rich. He blessed Abraham, Job, and others with great wealth.

So your lesson today is to learn that God doesn't necessarily hate the rich. He despises lovers of money, who place riches above the love for God and one's fellow man.

"The LOVE of money is the root of evil."

There. So go your way now and read your Bible.

sounds like your god can't make up his mind

not surprising since the jesus who condemned the rich was not the same "god" as the writers who invented characters like job and solomon
 
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