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Is Government Necessary?

K

Keithknight13

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Libertarian - Right
The most radical transition in U.S. history was when the U.S. elected a black democrat born poor and opposed war and the rich, after twice (well once) electing a wealthy born republican who lowered taxes for the rich and entered into two wars. Wheres the positive change? Wheres the change at all? This system is invented and only exists in our minds, when we give some people power over others. If we really thought a state was necessary, we would oppose states existing independent of one central power. That means multiple countries are currently existing making their own laws without a one world government. If the Feds are necessary, you are logically arguing a Planet Earth Government should exist; and will be justified if people get one vote between two people.

Government: The entity that holds a legally recognized monopoly on the use of force within a given geographical territory.
 
Keithknight13 said:
The most radical transition in U.S. history was when the U.S. elected a black democrat born poor and opposed war and the rich, after twice (well once) electing a wealthy born republican who lowered taxes for the rich and entered into two wars. Wheres the positive change? Wheres the change at all? This system is invented and only exists in our minds, when we give some people power over others. If we really thought a state was necessary, we would oppose states existing independent of one central power. That means multiple countries are currently existing making their own laws without a one world government. If the Feds are necessary, you are logically arguing a Planet Earth Government should exist; and will be justified if people get one vote between two people.

Government: The entity that holds a legally recognized monopoly on the use of force within a given geographical territory.
Click to expand...

Governments are necessary to produce public goods and/or regulate externalities, if the society is to be at all functional. And yes, you are right that there are externalities and public goods that no individual government can regulate adequately and produce efficiently. Examples would be international security, preventing pandemics, plastic in the sea or saving the ozone layer.
 
However I can't help but feel saying government is necessary, justifies how government can grow itself by making its own laws, the citizens have little say in. Would you support a Planet Earth Government?
 
Is government necessary? For the majority of humas, most definitely, unfortunately.
 
Keithknight13 said:
The most radical transition in U.S. history was when the U.S. elected a black democrat born poor and opposed war and the rich, after twice (well once) electing a wealthy born republican who lowered taxes for the rich and entered into two wars. Wheres the positive change? Wheres the change at all? This system is invented and only exists in our minds, when we give some people power over others. If we really thought a state was necessary, we would oppose states existing independent of one central power. That means multiple countries are currently existing making their own laws without a one world government. If the Feds are necessary, you are logically arguing a Planet Earth Government should exist; and will be justified if people get one vote between two people.

Government: The entity that holds a legally recognized monopoly on the use of force within a given geographical territory.
Click to expand...

LMMFGDAO Most Radical Transition my ***! I could name five off the top of my head that was more "radical" than that. To your point though (if I could make it out) the reason for government is because the average person doesn't have the time to do all the necessary research for a government to function. Let alone do the work to keep a government the size of the US going. There are some benefits but...

joG said:
Governments are necessary to produce public goods and/or regulate externalities, if the society is to be at all functional. And yes, you are right that there are externalities and public goods that no individual government can regulate adequately and produce efficiently. Examples would be international security, preventing pandemics, plastic in the sea or saving the ozone layer.
Click to expand...

A lot of what government is so called "necessary" for has been proven to be overstated. Any public service from road maintenance, sewage, water treatment, etc. can be taken care of in the private sector not only better, but cheaper. However, where I think government does provide a service, is being able to coordinate between varying entities. Only an organization like FEMA can possibly handle a disaster affecting millions.... though, several times in the past they've bungled that so even then their effectiveness is often understated.

Long story short, we tried less government when this nation was founded and discovered that there was a minimum required.
 
Much like medicine, government is necessary for specific purposes, but causes serious problems when overused. The key is moderation, a trait our government lacks at this time.
 
I meant ideologically the transition was enormous and supposed to be significant from the publics perspective, of course it was not though. This country hardly tried whatever you consider to be 'less' or 'minimal' government. Using phrases like "I could think of at least five" and not naming one, or "we tried that" without explaining why the transition was actually made to a bigger government, is intellectual laziness. FEMA is a joke-'lets steal money from citizens in the form of a tax year round, incase people in need want to be helped eventually'. People voluntarily gave money to disasters and rebuilt towns through disaster relief programs, long before 1979. Such as the Chicago Fire in the 1870's, or the Mississippi Flood of the 1920's which were equally as disastrous. They impose price controls, which give no incentive for goods to be shipped to areas where they are in demand, causing shortages. They have congress pass bills giving much more in aid than is needed, according to insurance agencies estimates along with granting certain corporations monopolies on the right to rebuild.

Ron Paul Thinks FEMA is the Real Disaster - Forbes
 
Keithknight13 said:
I meant ideologically the transition was enormous and supposed to be significant from the publics perspective, of course it was not though. This country hardly tried whatever you consider to be 'less' or 'minimal' government. Using phrases like "I could think of at least five" and not naming one, or "we tried that" without explaining why the transition was actually made to a bigger government, is intellectual laziness. FEMA is a joke-'lets steal money from citizens in the form of a tax year round, incase people in need want to be helped eventually'. People voluntarily gave money to disasters and rebuilt towns through disaster relief programs, long before 1979. Such as the Chicago Fire in the 1870's, or the Mississippi Flood of the 1920's which were equally as disastrous. They impose price controls, which give no incentive for goods to be shipped to areas where they are in demand, causing shortages. They have congress pass bills giving much more in aid than is needed, according to insurance agencies estimates along with granting certain corporations monopolies on the right to rebuild.

Ron Paul Thinks FEMA is the Real Disaster - Forbes
Click to expand...

I did give you one, perhaps if you would of read, you would of noticed the line:

"Long story short, we tried less government when this nation was founded and discovered that there was a minimum required."

It was called the Articles of Confederation, here's a link to the article for you to find out more: Let me google that for you

I'd provide other examples, but I have neither the time nor inclination to provide a history lesson to you.
 
lizzie said:
Is government necessary? For the majority of humas, most definitely, unfortunately.
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The majority of humans who aren't being able to trade with the U.S. and starve as a result of the Import Export Bank? Governments have killed (and starved) more people than any other invented entity in history. Saying 'oh well the majority wants it' (even when conger has a 6% approval rating) assumes these are informed individuals, as they are not in the slightest. Is gang rape necessary? For most people. But it does not respect the right of the minority and less politically connected, and thats the problem.
 
Keithknight13 said:
The majority of humans who aren't being able to trade with the U.S. and starve as a result of the Import Export Bank? Governments have killed (and starved) more people than any other invented entity in history. Saying 'oh well the majority wants it' (even when conger has a 6% approval rating) assumes these are informed individuals, as they are not in the slightest. Is gang rape necessary? For most people. But it does not respect the right of the minority and less politically connected, and thats the problem.
Click to expand...

The majority of humans in general. Is that a difficult concept to grasp?
 
Keithknight13 said:
The majority of humans who aren't being able to trade with the U.S. and starve as a result of the Import Export Bank? Governments have killed (and starved) more people than any other invented entity in history. Saying 'oh well the majority wants it' (even when conger has a 6% approval rating) assumes these are informed individuals, as they are not in the slightest. Is gang rape necessary? For most people. But it does not respect the right of the minority and less politically connected, and thats the problem.
Click to expand...

I assume conger means congress.

Congress approval rating =/= government (in the most general sense) approval rating (if there even is one)

Maybe a poll saying "do we need a government?" rather than "do you like congress?" would be much better for the point you are trying to make.

Governments have done just as many bad things as individual people/groups (look no further than ISIS). Government provides unity, last thing I would want is an ununified nation of over 300,000,000 people. It'd be a terrible tribal cluster****.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Much like medicine, government is necessary for specific purposes, but causes serious problems when overused. The key is moderation, a trait our government lacks at this time.
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The problem is that those at the top have more money than they need. The number of people at the top and the amount they have to spend is increasing. They use it to make more money, prop up bubbles, speculate on unproductive endeavors and at the same time influence politics in their favor.
 
Keithknight13 said:
However I can't help but feel saying government is necessary, justifies how government can grow itself by making its own laws, the citizens have little say in. Would you support a Planet Earth Government?
Click to expand...

You equate needing government = growing government exponentially. They aren't. Just because you need some governemnt doesn't mean it justifies government growing exponentially.

FYI, the citizens make up the government and vote people in and out.

The problem that we are facing is an ignorant voting populace and it isn't limited to the Dem voters it is also the GOP voters as well.
 
lizzie said:
The majority of humans in general. Is that a difficult concept to grasp?
Click to expand...

When I said 6% of people approve of congress according to Gallop, I was indicating 94% of people disapprove. The 94% holds the majority in this case. World wide I was referencing third world countries with high populations suffer because the state must accept a trading parter before one of their citizens can access a sufficient food supply, and the 225 million people killed by dictators in the 20th Century, along with deaths caused by the wars governments send citizens into. Indicating the majority of humans are at a net loss because of government. What about people in poverty that have had parents inprisioned by the drug war? At what point can the governments effects be recognized as immoral and non beneficial ?

So in general (whatever that means), governments make laws on behalf of the lobbyists who fund them and the lawyers who write such legislation. These are not made with the 'general good' mind.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
A lot of what government is so called "necessary" for has been proven to be overstated. Any public service from road maintenance, sewage, water treatment, etc. can be taken care of in the private sector not only better, but cheaper. However, where I think government does provide a service, is being able to coordinate between varying entities. Only an organization like FEMA can possibly handle a disaster affecting millions.... though, several times in the past they've bungled that so even then their effectiveness is often understated.

Long story short, we tried less government when this nation was founded and discovered that there was a minimum required.
Click to expand...

Of course bureaucracies overstate. It is up to the citizen to call the bluff. To begin with, public services are not the same thing as public goods in the economic sense. Public goods are, however, the only goods that governments produce more efficiently than the private sector. Similarly externalities from other activities cause inefficiency in a market and require government regulation. But otherwise the citizen should reject governments' demands for more power and mandates.
 
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