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Glorifying Suicide, don't do it.

Well, I'm against any help for someone to commit a suicide unless he has a terminal disease and only if they doing it in passive technique like refusing to get chemotherapeutic treatment. I think suicide assistance should be against the law because its a slippery slope, it will result in kids convincing their father to die in order to get inheritance money, or worst abusing the law for doing criminal acts.

And of course people that survive suicide attempts deserve compassion, never said the opposite.
It would present a new and different set of problems, yes. Not every issue has a perfect answer. Sometimes you just have to settle for the best alternative and know that you're weighing pros and cons.

I think assisted suicide would be the better (key point: better, not perfect) option, but I acknowledge there would be some who would pervert it and that there are legitimate points on that side as well.
 
Over the past few years I have lost one family member and two close friends who chose euthanasia over dying slowly and painfully of terminal cancer. It was their choice, and I'm glad that they had the choice.
 
It would present a new and different set of problems, yes. Not every issue has a perfect answer. Sometimes you just have to settle for the best alternative and know that you're weighing pros and cons.

I think assisted suicide would be the better (key point: better, not perfect) option, but I acknowledge there would be some who would pervert it and that there are legitimate points on that side as well.
ok...
 
There is no such thing as a "philosophical" view of murder. That's my point.

Here's a short conversation that might help disabuse you of that "comically simplistic" view.

This one's easy. 15-minute interview. Get a recent medications list. If a cause of sudden, induced psychosis is found, put a 2-week delay on the request for treatment. That's all they'll need, most likely.

If you want to make sure coercision victims aren't slipping by, then just get serious about protecting them when they report. That's something we suck at doing.

I don't really mind when you oversimplify this much. It's just that when you bait and deride others for doing so, you become an utter hypocrite.

I'm not comparing them, except insofar as we know what starvation of people not in the active stages of death is like. Which is to say, it is not peaceful, and it constitutes torture. We can also use voluntary protest fasters if that will make you let go of your pearls. They report all kinds of serious illnesses, physical and mental.
And did it ever occur to you that voluntary protest fasters don't actually WANT to die? Of course not.
 
What was Jesus Christ's death on the cross other than suicide?

An omnipotent God like Jesus Christ didn't have to let Himself die on the cross, but he did.

Why?

Was He depressed?

Any ideas?
 
(from the article)

They believed that Mr. Latimer had killed Tracy, but that he had done so to keep her from suffering the fearsome pain of the advanced cerebral palsy that twisted her body and kept her in agony.

not a good example to use to back yourself up

I do however agree with the spirit of your argument. I would attempt to intervene in any suicide attempt that I came across other than those who were terminal and had made a clear choice that they wished to die.

I don't know your age, but most people's positions shift as they age...even evangelicals who are dying have been known to 'see the light'. (pun intended)
 
(from the article)

They believed that Mr. Latimer had killed Tracy, but that he had done so to keep her from suffering the fearsome pain of the advanced cerebral palsy that twisted her body and kept her in agony.

not a good example to use to back yourself up

I do however agree with the spirit of your argument. I would attempt to intervene in any suicide attempt that I came across other than those who were terminal and had made a clear choice that the people's positions shift as they age...even evangelicals who are dying have been known to 'see the light'. (pun intended)
Of course its support my argument, because you can never know if the dad killed his daughter in order to end her endless suffering or he just want to end his personal suffering of taking care of her, so people can actually murder in the name of the law and get away with it. A slippery slope as I mentioned.
 
Of course its support my argument, because you can never know if the dad killed his daughter in order to end her endless suffering or he just want to end his personal suffering of taking care of her, so people can actually murder in the name of the law and get away with it. A slippery slope as I mentioned.
no, no read the article again...the jury believed he had done it to relieve her agony...it is quite clear why he did it. even from the article...

having followed the court case (twice)...he could no longer bear to see his daughter suffer...although she was young she had asked to die, repeatedly...can you imagine what it would be like to see your daughter trapped in a body that continued to twist little by little causing excruciating pain that could not be relieved by drugs? There is no relief in sight for this disease. To allow another to daily experience this type of agony is not humane.

It would be hell.

People can not murder in the name of the law. this case does not support that...here in Canada our laws do not support murder not even for capital crimes.
 
I really dont give a **** at this point. You people think differently and think insulting me cause you care more is important. Whatever.
I was just giving my opinion, it was my first post, and I don't think I insulted you.
 
no, no read the article again...the jury believed he had done it to relieve her agony...it is quite clear why he did it. even from the article...

having followed the court case (twice)...he could no longer bear to see his daughter suffer...although she was young she had asked to die, repeatedly...can you imagine what it would be like to see your daughter trapped in a body that continued to twist little by little causing excruciating pain that could not be relieved by drugs? There is no relief in sight for this disease. To allow another to daily experience this type of agony is not humane.

It would be hell.

People can not murder in the name of the law. this case does not support that...here in Canada our laws do not support murder not even for capital crimes.
With all do the respect for the jury, they can never know what was the dad intention, no one does. This incident shows very well the difficulty of giving right to die for everyone. Maybe the father done what he has done to relieve her agony, but still what prevents from another father to decide to kill his daughter because he is sick and tired of taking care of her, and he can cry and give an oscar show to the jury and they can fall for it. The thing is you can't know if he did it from the right reason.
 
With all do the respect for the jury, they can never know what was the dad intention, no one does. This incident shows very well the difficulty of giving right to die for everyone. Maybe the father done what he has done to relieve her agony, but still what prevents from another father to decide to kill his daughter because he is sick and tired of taking care of her, and he can cry and give an oscar show to the jury and they can fall for it. The thing is you can't know if he did it from the right reason.
Yes actually I can know. We are all human, we just need to learn to be human with another. People are not so very difficult to read or understand, we just need to learn to discern and to hear.

A jury weighed the facts as presented, twice.

No one can ever know anything for certain unless they walk in another's shoes...I do believe we as human beings do have the ability to empathize and that my friend is as close as anyone can ever come to being another person and seeing things from their perspective.

This case also just to clarify for you was not about the right to die although the girl did wish to die, essentially the dad ended her life for her and here in Canada that can not be done. He had begged for help, if a doctor had assisted him, they would have been charged with murder and their license revoked of course. Thus out of love and compassion he had to do it himself. He knew what would happen to him.

Do not think he did not know the consequences of his actions.

I don't know many parents with this type of courage and or love and understanding who could do what this man did. Plus face the judgement of society who like you, would of course condemn him. He still did what was in his heart the right thing to do.

I think it is quite black and white...there is no magic involved in this case...there was no concern shown by anyone that there had been abuse or a lack of care or love here.

You harshly judge this man on an article in a paper that clearly states they believed him yet you say the man was wrong, and all the people who had compassion upon him were wrong. He went to prison because unfortunately the jury while showing as much compassion as possible, still had to follow the law.

Clearly then, you could not sit a jury and listen to the facts given if preconceived judgement would not be swayed by the facts given. But that is okay of course since not all are chosen for jury for this very reason.

Anyway I think we might get into to trouble here for not staying on topic...but thanks for a good discussion.
 
Yes actually I can know. We are all human, we just need to learn to be human with another. People are not so very difficult to read or understand, we just need to learn to discern and to hear.

A jury weighed the facts as presented, twice.

No one can ever know anything for certain unless they walk in another's shoes...I do believe we as human beings do have the ability to empathize and that my friend is as close as anyone can ever come to being another person and seeing things from their perspective.

This case also just to clarify for you was not about the right to die although the girl did wish to die, essentially the dad ended her life for her and here in Canada that can not be done. He had begged for help, if a doctor had assisted him, they would have been charged with murder and their license revoked of course. Thus out of love and compassion he had to do it himself. He knew what would happen to him.

Do not think he did not know the consequences of his actions.

I don't know many parents with this type of courage and or love and understanding who could do what this man did. Plus face the judgement of society who like you, would of course condemn him. He still did what was in his heart the right thing to do.

I think it is quite black and white...there is no magic involved in this case...there was no concern shown by anyone that there had been abuse or a lack of care or love here.

You harshly judge this man on an article in a paper that clearly states they believed him yet you say the man was wrong, and all the people who had compassion upon him were wrong. He went to prison because unfortunately the jury while showing as much compassion as possible, still had to follow the law.

Clearly then, you could not sit a jury and listen to the facts given if preconceived judgement would not be swayed by the facts given. But that is okay of course since not all are chosen for jury for this very reason.

Anyway I think we might get into to trouble here for not staying on topic...but thanks for a good discussion.
All that end with the question: when a person get killed by another man on purpose, when is considerd a crime (murder) and when its not.
Maybe Ill open a thread on it in a week or two.
 
All that end with the question: when a person get killed by another man on purpose, when is considerd a crime (murder) and when its not.
Maybe Ill open a thread on it in a week or two.

Yes I think that would be an awesome discussion that would raise a lot of different view points.

also I really like your quote at the bottom of your posts.
 
What was Jesus Christ's death on the cross other than suicide?

An omnipotent God like Jesus Christ didn't have to let Himself die on the cross, but he did.

Why?

Was He depressed?

Any ideas?
Death is probably less scary when you know you're going to come back. ;)
 
Death is probably less scary when you know you're going to come back.
;)




That makes a lot of sense.

When you're omnipotent and control the present, past, and future of all that exists, what do you have to fear, other than a bad hair day?
 
Here's a short conversation that might help disabuse you of that "comically simplistic" view.

I don't really mind when you oversimplify this much. It's just that when you bait and deride others for doing so, you become an utter hypocrite.

And did it ever occur to you that voluntary protest fasters don't actually WANT to die? Of course not.

These words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean... :roll:

There's about a billion and one different outcomes of the enforcement of the above policy I outlined. That is what we call an efficient system; a system that's capable of the most movements with the fewest moving parts. Just because you mistake convolution for intelligence doesn't make it so.

*headdesk* Wow. Ok, dude. Listen closely. Maybe you'll eventually catch on to what we're discussing: what the physical process of starving to death is like. That was the subject. Surely you can read well enough to understand those words, yes?
 

We're lacking the gold standard proving personal integrity was respected in this case: request to die from the suffering person. Therefore, this doesn't apply to the topic of this thread, which is suicide or assisted euthanasia, and I can't pretend as though it does.

Here's a very relevant quote from the article:

''If you can make your own choice, that's a different thing, but if someone makes it for you, that's murder,'' said Ron Bort, provincial president of Saskatoon Voice of People With Disabilities. ''For someone else to decide your life is not worth living, that's the scary part.''

So basically, what you've presented me with is a strawman that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
 
That is incorrect. Empathy goes a long way towards helping the depressed to feel heard, validated, and cared about. These are things that can help to prevent a suicidal act and help the individual to talk rather than act.


That will indeed help, but that also will only go so far. I think if the person wants a way out, that will work wonders. Other people are so deep into their darkness, they can't notice that, or if it is a regular cycle, they might just plain tuckered out.

Sometimes, just having someone to listen can bring someone out of depression, or a change of enviornment, like moving away from a destructive emotional situation.
 
Now that you've given a framework for terminal illness cases, why would that not work just as well for assisting suicidal depression, at least as far as avoiding the kind of external pressure that you predict?

No. One who is clinically depressed is making a decision for suicide based on how their brain functioning has been altered because of that disease. Their decision making is compromised.
 
No. One who is clinically depressed is making a decision for suicide based on how their brain functioning has been altered because of that disease. Their decision making is compromised.

We were talking about his slippery slope of relatives and whatnot pressuring them to off themselves if it were a legal, simple process. That's a totally separate argument

Not every case is some emo teenager who just got dumped by his "one true love." I don't expect any kind of relenting from you if you're in mental health profession, but what do you tell someone who's been seriously depressed for 20 years, has tried all variety of antidepressants, therapy, ECT? "Oh, you need to *keep trying* and it's just your irrational brain causing you to consider suicide." Yeah, quite the solution!
 
What was Jesus Christ's death on the cross other than suicide?

An omnipotent God like Jesus Christ didn't have to let Himself die on the cross, but he did.

Why?

Was He depressed?

Any ideas?

rofl you're going to really set them off with this. Although in fairness, i think it was more like assisted suicide.

Why? Cause we never would've heard of him if not for "died for our sins" in such a horrible manner and the resurrection story. Imagine someone went around like this today. They would just be laughed off as a loony, and surely not crucified, nor remembered. Today only the destructive 'prophets' get remembered, because we don't execute people for speech, no matter how blasphemous.
 
rofl
you're going to really set them off with this. Although in fairness, i think it was more like assisted suicide.

Why? Cause we never would've heard of him if not for "died for our sins" in such a horrible manner and the resurrection story. Imagine someone went around like this today. They would just be laughed off as a loony, and surely not crucified, nor remembered. Today only the destructive 'prophets' get remembered, because we don't execute people for speech, no matter how blasphemous.




I agree, and I kind of thought that I might tick a few people off, but I guess that my post was a little too restrained.

A Christian caliphate in the USA would be nothing like the Spanish Inquisition but I wouldn't want to live under it.

The far-right evangelicals would like to get the government off of Wall Streets back and in every American bedroom.

I don't believe that they will ever do that, but I give them credit for trying.




"The very word 'Christianity' is a misunderstanding--at bottom there was only one Christian and he died on the cross." ~Friedrich Nietszche
 
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