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The concept of NOTHING

Paxaeon said:
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It is difficult enough to imagine a time, 13.7 billion years ago, (+/-) when the entire universe existed as a singularity. According to the big bang theory, one of the main contenders vying to explain how the universe came to be, all the matter in the cosmos -- all of space itself -- existed in a form smaller than a subatomic particle.

Once you think about that, an even more difficult question arises: What existed just before the big bang occurred?

In a certain sense, many (but definitely not all) scientists and theologians agree; In the beginning there was NOTHING.

When most people think of “nothing” they imagine the vastness of empty space but time/space did not exist before the singularity so that’s out. No gravity, no electromagnetic/weak/strong force, no quarks, leptons and strings….nothing….the complete absence of anything.

Semantics aside, the concept of Nothing is so incomprehensible, we cannot even imagine it and yet theoretically such a state may have existed which itself is paradox as there was no time/space. Words such as "before" or "after" refer to a temporal scale. This temporal scale came into existence at the moment of the Big Bang,

Discuss.
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Our senses have arisen to detect a very small spectrum of the physical universe we live in, but it's important to ponder that. Our senses are the direct result of the environment we exist within.....

Whatever existed before the universe as we know it, my have simply been a different state that are senses and instruments are simply unable to detect. Nothing is simply that which exists in a state that is undetectable. We know now that the "nothingness of space" is actually filled with something. Dark matter and energy can't be detected, but their influence can.

To say nothing existed, is, in my mind anyway, simply a place holder until we refine new ways to detect the previously undetectable.

The fact that the universe is here, in my mind offers some evidence that something existed. The start of the universe as we know it, may have simply been a set of discreet circumstances that aligned at just the right moment and the result was the "Big Bang".
 
The human mind is incapable of comprehending 'nothing'. If we sit back and mentally subtract everything out of the universe that doesn't absolutely have to be there--the stars, planets, moons, comets, asteroids, black holes--EVERYTHING--we are not able to mentally subtract time and space out of our consciousness. Those two things are something, not nothing. So 'nothing' itself is an impossible concept except to describe the absence of something. We can look for the tumor on the x-ray and will say there is nothing there, when in fact there is much there. We can look into a specific point of space in which no matter exists and say there is nothing there, but in fact there is space there.

So 'nothing' itself is an impossibility when applied to all that there is.
 
Paxaeon said:
I can accept your rationale without question. For me, I do not accept nor believe in the concepts of eternity and infinity, those are just words we use to describe measures we cannot comprehend.
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Infinity deals with time, time is a measure of change.....As it so happens, when looking at the universe as a whole, the law of entropy is valid. As such time could be described as the measure of the moment to moment change in entropy.

If everything were to stop, relative to everything else and nothing were to change, what would time measure? How would we measure the passage of time?

Infinity could simply be a state in which there is no change in entropy. A state that could have quite logically existed during the singularity.

The singularity could have been made of elementary particles, that didn't change, it's possible they could have even stood perfectly still, or in a quantum sense have been anywhere.....In this state time is irrelevant and infinity is very real.
 
csbrown28 said:
Our senses have arisen to detect a very small spectrum of the physical universe we live in, but it's important to ponder that. Our senses are the direct result of the environment we exist within.....

Whatever existed before the universe as we know it, my have simply been a different state that are senses and instruments are simply unable to detect. Nothing is simply that which exists in a state that is undetectable. We know now that the "nothingness of space" is actually filled with something. Dark matter and energy can't be detected, but their influence can.

To say nothing existed, is, in my mind anyway, simply a place holder until we refine new ways to detect the previously undetectable.

The fact that the universe is here, in my mind offers some evidence that something existed. The start of the universe as we know it, may have simply been a set of discreet circumstances that aligned at just the right moment and the result was the "Big Bang".
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Our senses developed in reaction to outside stimuli in order for us to adapt to our environment, but we probably only detect a small amount of the information available in the universal environment, even with our instruments and technology, we're only reading a marginal amount of the energy beyond our sensory range.

If it's true that the universe only comes into its current form when being observed on a quantum level, what does that say about the nature of it before conscious life forms existed? Is it possible that the universal elements (particles) only exist in the form of organized information or energy waves, like a giant, virtual computer program? Makes me wonder what, if any dimension, is added by conscious interaction, and does it complete some necessary circuit for physical matter to come into a more solid, particle like reality?
 
Many of you struggle because you are trying to relate per our laws of physics when it actually it those laws did not exist, i.e., matter without mass and travel greater than the speed of light, those do not fall into our laws of physics so you are trying to understand a manuscript written in Chinese when all you relate to is English. The now accepted theory of inflation which in part declares the concept of one universe obsolete is another brain twister to consider.
 
rhinefire said:
Many of you struggle because you are trying to relate per our laws of physics when it actually it those laws did not exist, i.e., matter without mass and travel greater than the speed of light.
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I have no clue as to the meaning of your statement. It actually it those?
 
You all keep trying to "relate" and that will get you nowhere. Before and at the instant of the BB are not of our laws of physics. We are 'Here" the the BB is "there". Stop banging you heads against the wall. The sole purpose of what theoretical physicists are trying to learn is what is "there". They only hope to learn and accept that they may not. Right now they believe that will get to the .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 of one second after the bang and from that point it may be a solvable puzzle.
 
Does a tree falling in the forest make a sound if there is nobody there to hear it?

Do the laws of physics exist before something exists to which they apply?

The rational answer of course is 'yes' to both.

And neither are relevant to what 'nothing' is. Can 'nothing' exist? Not unless it would be possible for time and space to not exist. And I maintain the human mind is incapable of comprehending a lack of time and space.
 
rhinefire said:
You all keep trying to "relate" and that will get you nowhere. Before and at the instant of the BB are not of our laws of physics. We are 'Here" the the BB is "there". Stop banging you heads against the wall. The sole purpose of what theoretical physicists are trying to learn is what is "there". They only hope to learn and accept that they may not. Right now they believe that will get to the .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 of one second after the bang and from that point it may be a solvable puzzle.
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Is that rant supposed to mean something?
 
AlbqOwl said:
And I maintain the human mind is incapable of comprehending a lack of time and space.
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True. Some human minds can't even grasp the basic facts of 911.
 
zyzygy said:
True. Some human minds can't even grasp the basic facts of 911.
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Sorry but that is non sequitur to the point made and throws an entirely unnecessary red herring into the mix. Let's focus on the concept of nothing okay?
 
AlbqOwl said:
Sorry but that is non sequitur to the point made and throws an entirely unnecessary red herring into the mix. Let's focus on the concept of nothing okay?
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Ok, just let me get into the lotus position. Ommmmmmm..........
 
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