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Existentialism

DDD said:
The thing is this is just some meaning to help you go by, it is not really so.
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That is the reason that I used the term "perception of reality" when discussing religious matters. Reality is a huge concept. There is objective reality based on facts and the things which can be proved, then subjective, which is based on individual perception.
 
lizzie said:
That is the reason that I used the term "perception of reality" when discussing religious matters. Reality is a huge concept. There is objective reality based on facts and the things which can be proved, then subjective, which is based on individual perception.
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Right, yes, yes.

The point I was trying to make though is that the existentialist lecturer was telling us that everything is just a meaningful bubble and it is not necessarily real, and yet he would believe in surreal things such as "God." And not like you here, but the Torah God of Judaism that we all say we "know" so much about.

A bit hypocritical is it not?

Everything is BS, but let me believe so full heartedly on this little BS of mine.

But this is probably what is meant by "each to their own." As in "each to their own meanings to go by against existential anxiety."
 
DDD said:
Technically you are free to make every choice, and this is one existential given. Some choices may be imposed on you, but that is just as far as it goes.
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This when philosophy encounters psychology and no clear answer is readily available - the impact of the subconscious upon free will.
 
Jango said:
This when philosophy encounters psychology and no clear answer is readily available - the impact of the subconscious upon free will.
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But, to keep it short for the purpose of this thread, that is your subconscious hinting which decision to make.
 
DDD said:
But, to keep it short for the purpose of this thread, that is your subconscious hinting which decision to make.
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Whether it is our own or not is of little significance. Why? Conscious mind = a visible hand. Subconscious mind = an invisible hand. And we're all affected by this invisible hand. How much? We don't know enough yet.
 
Jango said:
Whether it is our own or not is of little significance. Why? Conscious mind = a visible hand. Subconscious mind = an invisible hand. And we're all affected by this invisible hand. How much? We don't know enough yet.
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I'd guess that the subconscious is probably much more influential than most of us think.
 
DDD said:
I understand that physics and physiology may account for some decisions that we do. But sometimes picking any one would do, thus it equals that it is a random chance. Unless we do not have the proper psychologically insightful instruments to see exactly why the decision was made and was it predetermined.
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Is there room for randomness in physics? There is the quantum stuff, but I am not sure even there that causal certainty doesn't underlie reality, when everything is known.

Of course, cause and effect do not mean things cannot be too complicated or so little understood that the outcome seems to us to be random.
 
lizzie said:
I'd guess that the subconscious is probably much more influential than most of us think.
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Right, like how often is it "whispering" to us? We don't know. But we do know it can have a profound impact upon us. So that begs the question of - whose will is being carried out, our conscious or our subconscious?
 
Jango said:
Right, like how often is it "whispering" to us? We don't know. But we do know it can have a profound impact upon us. So that begs the question of - whose will is being carried out, our conscious or our subconscious?
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My guess is that the more you ignore and deny it, the more it will make itself known, and the more you will act upon it. (subconscious)
 
lizzie said:
My guess is that the more you ignore and deny it, the more it will make itself known, and the more you will act upon it. (subconscious)
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"Don't forget, kids, to think of your subconscious mind once a day."

;)
 
lizzie said:
No, I mean exactly what I said. You can't force yourself to believe anything which does not make sense to you, and doesn't fit in with your perception of reality.
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Yes understood and I asked how do we form our perceptions of reality, when so many people perceive it so differently.
 
joG said:
Is there room for randomness in physics? There is the quantum stuff, but I am not sure even there that causal certainty doesn't underlie reality, when everything is known.

Of course, cause and effect do not mean things cannot be too complicated or so little understood that the outcome seems to us to be random.
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Yet, some decisions are set with a "ini miny, miny, mo."
 
Manny said:
Yes understood and I asked how do we form our perceptions of reality, when so many people perceive it so differently.
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You create reality by assigning meaning. Since reality is so dynamic and different everyone assigns meaning to reality differently.
 
Manny said:
Yes understood and I asked how do we form our perceptions of reality, when so many people perceive it so differently.
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You create reality by assigning meaning everything in it. Since reality is so dynamic and different everyone assigns meaning to reality differently.
 
DDD said:
When buried underneath the world's ever more flowing information, values, beliefs - meanings, it is good to have a break and be closer to the "absurdity" that you call, and have a bit of fresh air. From that angle the relief comes that you recognize that all those incoming meanings are BS that one chooses to live by so as to make meaning for themselves.
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We can replace it with a sense of absurdity or we can replace it with a sense that there is an absolute meaning. Absurdity leads to a feeling of alienation, or even, contempt for others if we believe we are living in an illusion. Then those who believe the illusion would seem like fools.
 
Manny said:
We can replace it with a sense of absurdity or we can replace it with a sense that there is an absolute meaning. Absurdity leads to a feeling of alienation, or even, contempt for others if we believe we are living in an illusion. Then those who believe the illusion would seem like fools.
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But fools they are, because there is no "absolute meaning" if you mean by that a meaning equally shared by all.
 
DDD said:
How can your sub-conscious not be your sub-conscious?
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Be someone else's, my point - the subconscious affects every one of us.
 
Jango said:
Be someone else's, my point - the subconscious affects every one of us.
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You mean your sub-conscious affects you and your decisions? Of course!

But for the sake of sanity the two are neither parallel and much less separate!
 
DDD said:
Yet, some decisions are set with a "ini miny, miny, mo."
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That is very true. But on the atomic level iwhatever started the universe. ready in motion before you were born. The causal chain started with Big Bang or whateve
 
joG said:
That is very true. But on the atomic level iwhatever started the universe. ready in motion before you were born. The causal chain started with Big Bang or whateve
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Well it is a theory. If it helps you with your existential anxiety then who am I or anyone else to question it?
 
DDD said:
Well it is a theory. If it helps you with your existential anxiety then who am I or anyone else to question it?
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Actually this particular theory is central to science.
 
PoS said:
For those not familiar with it, here are some definitions from Wikipedia and Ive added some of my own too.

Basically it means that individuals determine their own development/destiny/purpose in life through their acts and feelings, not just thoughts. There are several subsets of existentialism, namely fatalism, determinism and nihilism.

Fatalism is a philosophical doctrine stressing the subjugation of all events or actions to fate. The view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. Also it could mean an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable.

Determinism is a philosophical position stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen. It is similar to fatalism in that it creates an illusion of choice but in the end, everything falls into place in a single way because there really isnt a choice.

Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being "thrown" into the universe, barred from knowing "why", yet compelled to invent meaning. The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create his or her own subjective "meaning" or "purpose".

Another important aspect to existentialism is the definition of absurdity. The notion of the Absurd contains the idea that there is no meaning to be found in the world beyond what meaning we give to it. This meaninglessness also encompasses the amorality or "unfairness" of the world. This contrasts with the notion that "bad things don't happen to good people"; to the world, metaphorically speaking, there is no such thing as a good person or a bad person; what happens happens, and it may just as well happen to a "good" person as to a "bad" person.

Because of the world's absurdity, at any point in time, anything can happen to anyone, and a tragic event could plummet someone into direct confrontation with the Absurd.

Does anybody subscribe to this philosophy? I would consider myself an existential nihilist since Im an atheist and I more or less create my own meaning of life.

Thoughts?
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With the causality we assume in science it seems somewhat hard to see meaning in things and absurdity would be defined by our feeling of freedom to decide.
 
joG said:
With the causality we assume in science it seems somewhat hard to see meaning in things and absurdity would be defined by our feeling of freedom to decide.
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We do have the freedom to decide. We just don't have the freedom to decide in any other way than we choose.
 
DDD said:
But fools they are, because there is no "absolute meaning" if you mean by that a meaning equally shared by all.
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I meant that the nihilist eventually sees EVERYONE as a fool for creating their own meaning, whether personal or universal, because the nihilist believes it is an illusion. To carry on believing in a lie is absurd, and so those who seek meaning are themselves absurd. Therefore existentialism evolves into sociopathy.
Finally, they must accept the fate of Sysiphus. There is no choice.
 
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