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Existentialism

PoS said:
Your own views give it a perceived value, according to you.


You need to explain how the things I mentioned are objective then.
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Morality, ethics, and metaphysics all deal with objects.
 
Paleocon said:
Morality, ethics, and metaphysics all deal with objects.
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:doh

We're not talking about objects, we're talking about whether those terms are objective or subjective.
 
PoS said:
:doh

We're not talking about objects, we're talking about whether those terms are objective or subjective.
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That they deal with objects makes them objective.
 
DDD said:
How is science predeterministic (see Rainman's definition above)?

You hold the predeterministic position and yet:

If we act on our own then our actions are not predetermined, are they?
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If, as we assume in science everything that happens in nature can be explained by cause and effect of the laws of physics, there is no room for action that is not predetermined. In other words physics assumes all to be predetermined.

Nature is very large and we have not acquired all of the details nor can we handle the quantities of information. This means, that though we are incapable of total prediction, it would be possible in theory.
 
DDD said:
This is just you making meaning out of that... Story is it?

Sometimes Metallica's "Fade to Black" creates meaning for me:

Metallica - Fade to Black - YouTube

But otherwise there is no common ground to which we should find purpose that is shared ontogenetically or phylogenetically.
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Like all of Kurt Vonnegut's writing I found the book is a wonderful read. It is in Wikipedia, but I recommend it as well as Cat's Cradle and the others.
 
PoS said:
Because of the world's absurdity, at any point in time, anything can happen to anyone, and a tragic event could plummet someone into direct confrontation with the Absurd.

Does anybody subscribe to this philosophy? I would consider myself an existential nihilist since Im an atheist and I more or less create my own meaning of life.

Thoughts?
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Yes, to a degree, I subscribe to that philosophy, although I wouldn't characterize myself as an atheist. My perception of God is not that it favors anyone or anything, but is more of a source of creativity and inspiration, and in my life, intuition, creativity, and the unexpected or odd, is a persistent and meaningful theme.
 
I don't see existentialism as a philosophy but more like the diagnosis of an illness. It is the condition that modern humankind find themselves in, well, at least people who have rejected the belief in god. It is a philosophy of atheism, and a dark one at that because it leaves little in the form of relief. It does not provide a solution, only the proclamation that life has no absolute meaning. It is like zen, in a way, in its embrace of absurdity.
We do have freedom to choose what we believe in but here is a word of caution- whatever you believe becomes the reality for you. If you choose to believe in nothingness and absurdity, then ask yourself where this road leads you. What is the long view, and not only for your self (as we are so chronically self absorbed) but what is the long view of a society built on existential ideas? My answer is, increasing despair, emptiness, alienation from one another and increasing suicide.
 
Manny said:
I don't see existentialism as a philosophy but more like the diagnosis of an illness. It is the condition that modern humankind find themselves in, well, at least people who have rejected the belief in god. It is a philosophy of atheism, and a dark one at that because it leaves little in the form of relief. It does not provide a solution, only the proclamation that life has no absolute meaning. It is like zen, in a way, in its embrace of absurdity.
We do have freedom to choose what we believe in but here is a word of caution- whatever you believe becomes the reality for you. If you choose to believe in nothingness and absurdity, then ask yourself where this road leads you. What is the long view, and not only for your self (as we are so chronically self absorbed) but what is the long view of a society built on existential ideas? My answer is, increasing despair, emptiness, alienation from one another and increasing suicide.
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One cannot force themselves to believe in something. If something does not make sense to you, and you cannot reconcile it with your perception of how reality works, it won't work for you, no matter how much you want to believe.
 
lizzie said:
One cannot force themselves to believe in something. If something does not make sense to you, and you cannot reconcile it with your perception of how reality works, it won't work for you, no matter how much you want to believe.
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I think you mean that we "select" things that affirm how we feel about life. If a person is depressed, they will certainly have a negative outlook.
We are influenced by our personal experiences and by messages we receive from the media, our friends and by general cultural attitudes. Propaganda plays a big role in what the young (inexperienced) mind is drawn toward. This becomes the accepted thing.
 
Manny said:
I think you mean that we "select" things that affirm how we feel about life. If a person is depressed, they will certainly have a negative outlook.
We are influenced by our personal experiences and by messages we receive from the media, our friends and by general cultural attitudes. Propaganda plays a big role in what the young (inexperienced) mind is drawn toward. This becomes the accepted thing.
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No, I mean exactly what I said. You can't force yourself to believe anything which does not make sense to you, and doesn't fit in with your perception of reality.
 
lizzie said:
Yes, to a degree, I subscribe to that philosophy, although I wouldn't characterize myself as an atheist. My perception of God is not that it favors anyone or anything, but is more of a source of creativity and inspiration, and in my life, intuition, creativity, and the unexpected or odd, is a persistent and meaningful theme.
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Kind of interesting. My perception of God is becoming almost akin to a totem. I pray a lot and I get a lot of guidance and often that guidance leads me to pain but in the end, I am more wise. It obviously cares and even doles out a lot of tough love.
 
joG said:
If, as we assume in science everything that happens in nature can be explained by cause and effect of the laws of physics, there is no room for action that is not predetermined. In other words physics assumes all to be predetermined.

Nature is very large and we have not acquired all of the details nor can we handle the quantities of information. This means, that though we are incapable of total prediction, it would be possible in theory.
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I understand that physics and physiology may account for some decisions that we do. But sometimes picking any one would do, thus it equals that it is a random chance. Unless we do not have the proper psychologically insightful instruments to see exactly why the decision was made and was it predetermined.
 
DDD said:
Nothing I said was intended personally at you, much less poke at you, even less more having fun while I poke at you. I was trying to illustrate the existentialist position. All what you said is just how you have build your own bubble of reality with meaning according to the existentialist philosophy.

Was my last line that included somewhat more vulgar words such as "BS" that made it seem as if it was personal? I thought "BS" is used regularly over there in USA?
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Yeah, bro, BS = bull****.
 
PoS said:
But cant an individual choose his own fate, so to speak, by making little decisions as to whether he goes to college, or drops out of school and choosing what job he has in order to forge his own long term destiny? Whether we admit it or not, life is a series of choices, and those choices we make ultimately determines the outcome- good or bad is a matter of perspective. One can choose to be a cop, or a criminal or a hermit- even in the most repressive of societies one still has some influence over his individual fate.
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Life for us is a lot about choices. The area that is contentious is how many of our choices are we actually free to make.
 
lizzie said:
Yes, to a degree, I subscribe to that philosophy, although I wouldn't characterize myself as an atheist. My perception of God is not that it favors anyone or anything, but is more of a source of creativity and inspiration, and in my life, intuition, creativity, and the unexpected or odd, is a persistent and meaningful theme.
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Existentialism is not reserved to atheists or deists alone. My first encounter with an existentialist was with a extremely Jewish lecturer.

Never did I had the change to ask him how the two seemed compatible to him though! :confused:
 
Manny said:
I don't see existentialism as a philosophy but more like the diagnosis of an illness. It is the condition that modern humankind find themselves in, well, at least people who have rejected the belief in god. It is a philosophy of atheism, and a dark one at that because it leaves little in the form of relief. It does not provide a solution, only the proclamation that life has no absolute meaning. It is like zen, in a way, in its embrace of absurdity.
We do have freedom to choose what we believe in but here is a word of caution- whatever you believe becomes the reality for you. If you choose to believe in nothingness and absurdity, then ask yourself where this road leads you. What is the long view, and not only for your self (as we are so chronically self absorbed) but what is the long view of a society built on existential ideas? My answer is, increasing despair, emptiness, alienation from one another and increasing suicide.
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When buried underneath the world's ever more flowing information, values, beliefs - meanings, it is good to have a break and be closer to the "absurdity" that you call, and have a bit of fresh air. From that angle the relief comes that you recognize that all those incoming meanings are BS that one chooses to live by so as to make meaning for themselves.
 
DDD said:
Existentialism is not reserved to atheists or deists alone. My first encounter with an existentialist was with a extremely Jewish lecturer.

Never did I had the change to ask him how the two seemed compatible to him though! :confused:
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To me, they are compatible, because I don't view my religious beliefs or my concept of God as being something which bestows favor on me (or anyone else). To me, it's a rather impersonal and impartial God.
 
Manny said:
I think you mean that we "select" things that affirm how we feel about life. If a person is depressed, they will certainly have a negative outlook.
We are influenced by our personal experiences and by messages we receive from the media, our friends and by general cultural attitudes. Propaganda plays a big role in what the young (inexperienced) mind is drawn toward. This becomes the accepted thing.
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But not necessarily the truth. Plus if you have too much of it you can have relief, see my post above.
 
Jango said:
Life for us is a lot about choices. The area that is contentious is how many of our choices are we actually free to make.
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Technically you are free to make every choice, and this is one existential given. Some choices may be imposed on you, but that is just as far as it goes.
 
lizzie said:
To me, they are compatible, because I don't view my religious beliefs or my concept of God as being something which bestows favor on me (or anyone else). To me, it's a rather impersonal and impartial God.
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The thing is this is just some meaning to help you go by, it is not really so. I mean "Really" as in "observed objectively from everyone." Thus how could a lecturer teach existentialism in one hand and introduce students to uncertainties, decision making, fatalism of death, isolation, and most importantly life's meaningless (telling that everything including religion is just a bubble against existential anxiety) and then believe in such a bubble at the same time?
 
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