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Is it smart to reach out to aliens?

Is it smart to reach out to aliens?


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I said that population, and population related issues, were probably the "greatest" single factor in driving human advancement, not the only one.

As I already said, the only "universal" element here are circumstances which push people outside of their comfort zones, and force them to adapt. "Comfortable" peoples simply don't tend to have a lot of motivation to change.

Such circumstances are quite often brought about as a result of population growth, but not always. Sometimes, there are other factors at play.



Necessity is the mother of invention. More people require more innovative means of keeping them fed and supplied, which in turn requires more complex forms of social organization and leadership.

It also means more minds who can potentially be set to the task of dreaming such things up.

Granted, other things can occasionally get in the way and prevent this from occurring, and sometimes the problem can be too dire for a society to be able to adapt in time. Such societies tend to either stagnate, or collapse.

However, the fact of the matter remains that the principle I stated above holds true far more often than it does not. One cannot very well have a "Revolution" without the manpower to make it workable.



No, I'm saying that such things tend not to develop in a vacuum. People don't simply wake up one day, think to themselves "I'm going to change the world," and make it happen. There are a whole range pre-conditions and criteria which must perfectly align before any conceivable "Revolution" is going to have even a minute chance of successfully taking hold over a given society.

While social attitudes can play a role in that, by far the greater influence is simple practicality. There must be a pressing need for the existing status quo to change.

Society doesn't move forward because men are fundamentally better than they were before, as Eco seemed to be implying. It moves forward because there is no other choice in a lot of cases.



China didn't have a pressing need to change. They had different circumstances.

Europe, on the other hand, was a veritable "pressure cooker" of war, social conflict, and general unease. That stimulated adaptation and development.



To the contrary, it very much is your "personal opinion." Claiming that we can know much of anything about pre-history as an "established fact" is nonsensical.

That's why it's called "pre-history" to begin with. All we can really do is infer certain conclusions from the evidence we have available.

In that regard, what's more likely? That people started hoarding artificial forms of currency with no one to trade them to, and only moved into large settlements afterwards?

or...

That large settlements were a requirement of seasonal agriculture, and that as they grew and developed, common forms of established currency were adopted as a means of standardizing transactions?

Frankly, I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Currency is useless without a market in which to spend it.



Which "Agricultural Revolution" are you referring to here? The Neolithic Revolution was supposed to have taken centuries to accomplish at least, and more likely millennia.



Not in the least. Again, what matters most here are circumstances which compel a people to change.

Not all societies are faced with the same pressures, or have the same resources available in dealing with them.

A hunter-gatherer tribe living in the middle of a dense jungle, for instance, might never feel a need to develop beyond their present level. They have more food available than they could ever possibly know what to do with, and the environment is naturally harsh enough to keep their population levels in check.

By way of contrast, a tribe living on a plain by a river with few natural hazards to keep the population in check, and where most of the native game animals have either been rendered scarce by over-hunting, or driven off, as such, isn't likely to be so fortunate. Food stuffs produced by local flora would probably have been the only workable alternative available under such circumstances. Over time, cultivation of those foodstuffs would have probably resulted in agriculture.



When did I ever deny that technology played an important role? In point of fact, I rather explicitly said that technological knowledge accumulates over time, as concurrent generations build on top of what their predecessors left behind.

Occasionally, that leads to a major breakthrough.

However, more often than not, if that breakthrough is going to be picked up upon, there has to be some other element at play. There has to be a pressing need for the functionality it provides.

The Ancient Greeks, for instance, had mechanical calculators and steam engines. They never regarded them as more than mere novelties, however, as they were already comfortable where they were. The Europeans of the Renaissance era, by way of contrast, were not, so they used those tools to their full potential.

I'm willing to bet much the same will probably be true with our own society.

We have the technology to make it off this planet, but we have chosen not to make use of it, as we see no pressing need.

Do you think the same will be true a few centuries down the road when the global population sits at ten billion people or more and resources are starting to become scarce?

Do you think the breakthroughs in knowledge proceed the sudden growth spurts in population? Other words, the population growths are a result of the expansion of knowledge and overcoming of environmental limitations and dangers?
 
Do you think the breakthroughs in knowledge proceed the sudden growth spurts in population? Other words, the population growths are a result of the expansion of knowledge and overcoming of environmental limitations and dangers?

I think it goes back and forth. Sometimes a breakthrough is made all of the sudden which allows a population explosion to occur, and sometimes the breakthrough is reactive, in response to population pressures which have already been growing for quite some time (and an explosion still follows either way regardless).

All told, however, given the fact that population growth has been more or less constant throughout our history, and food production has been a virtually never ending "uphill" battle as such, I'd say that the second scenario is a bit more common than the first.

Simply put, there's pretty much always more new people in the world, always needing new and more innovative ways to be fed and organized. This dynamic has only recently been seriously challenged, by the development of reliable contraceptives.

Frankly, even that has only really taken hold in one small part of the world.
 
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I think it goes back and forth. Sometimes a breakthrough is made all of the sudden which allows a population explosion to occur, and sometimes the breakthrough is reactive, in response to population pressures which have already been growing for quite some time (and an explosion still follows either way regardless).

All told, however, given the fact that population growth has been more or less constant throughout our history, and food production has been a virtually never ending "uphill" battle as such, I'd say that the second scenario is a bit more common than the first.

There's pretty much always more new people in the world, always needing new and more innovative ways to be fed and organized. This dynamic has only recently been seriously challenged, by the development of reliable contraceptives.

Frankly, even that has only really taken hold in one small part of the world.

I believe most population expansion periods have been historically linked to advancements in science, knowledge and technology. Though, I believe as you that they're spurred on further by the social development and adaptation as a result of growth.

Also, every other generation seems to go thru era's of War's, diseases and political struggles, resulting in signifant population reductions. Probably the biggest exponential increase in knowledge and population have occurred in the last century.
 
I believe most population expansion periods have been historically linked to advancements in science, knowledge and technology. Though, I believe as you that they're spurred on further by the social development and adaptation as a result of growth.

Also, every other generation seems to go thru era's of War's, diseases and political struggles, resulting in signifant population reductions. Probably the biggest exponential increase in knowledge and population have occurred in the last century.

That's certainly true. Our technological advancement, social organization, and population levels have basically grown to a point where they have been able to reach "critical mass," with each new development in one field, pushing tandem advancement in the other two.

I wasn't trying to deny this, or downplay it's importance. I was simply questioning the assertion that this makes us in any sense "better people" than our ancestors.

To the contrary, we're simply people who are able to live a lot more comfortably than our ancestors were, due to the material cushion our technology and highly efficient means of production provide. We are a lot less prone to desperate behavior as such.

In other words, we have the luxury to occasionally indulge in altruistic behavior, which past generations would have lacked.

Make no mistake, however. This doesn't mean that the potential for barbarism isn't still there under the surface. If and when our current circumstances deteriorate (which it looks like they are, at present), those tendencies will likely begin to assert themselves once again.

That was the major gist of my original argument. An alien race more advanced than ourselves wouldn't be inherently "better" than we are because of it. They'd simply be a bit more comfortable in their position.

While that may very well lead to a certain degree of either "altruistic" behavior, or indifference, towards us, that is very much dependent upon the circumstances of the alien race in question. If they need something from us badly enough, or feel threatened, they would likely be capable of behavior just as ruthless and "barbaric" as any human being.

Technology and morality are not synonymous, simply put.
 
In a word, no. They might very well be friendly. However, by the same token, they might not be. We really can't afford to take that chance.

If and when we ever happen to encounter an extraterrestrial intelligence, it needs to be on our own terms.

Exactly. And the chances they would even think like us approaches zero. Absolutely no chance they have any of the same values. Communication would be an iffy thing and likely to be misinterpreted.
 
That's certainly true. Our technological advancement, social organization, and population levels have basically grown to a point where they have been able to reach "critical mass," with each new development in one field, pushing tandem advancement in the other two.

I wasn't trying to deny this, or downplay it's importance. I was simply questioning the assertion that this makes us in any sense "better people" than our ancestors.

To the contrary, we're simply people who are able to live a lot more comfortably than our ancestors were, due to the material cushion our technology and highly efficient means of production provide. We are a lot less prone to desperate behavior as such.

In other words, we have the luxury to occasionally indulge in altruistic behavior, which past generations would have lacked.

Make no mistake, however. This doesn't mean that the potential for barbarism isn't still there under the surface. If and when our current circumstances deteriorate (which it looks like they are, at present), those tendencies will likely begin to assert themselves once again.

That was the major gist of my original argument. An alien race more advanced than ourselves wouldn't be inherently "better" than we are because of it. They'd simply be a bit more comfortable in their position.

While that may very well lead to a certain degree of either "altruistic" behavior, or indifference, towards us, that is very much dependent upon the circumstances of the alien race in question. If they need something from us badly enough, or feel threatened, they would likely be capable of behavior just as ruthless and "barbaric" as any human being.

Technology and morality are not synonymous, simply put.


I think we're more advanced logically, socially and emotionally than our predecessors. Though we're not necessarily better people, just more intelligent and evolved overall.

And I would expect that not only would we be more peaceful as we mature, so would most any advanced Alien species. I think it's a natural evolutionary progression away from violence and emotional impulses, as a species conquers all their natural predators and other environmental stressor's. It's always to our advantage to be cooperative as a race and with our environment for our continued survival and advancement.

But as you note, we're an instinctual species by nature and could erupt into a global conflict of violence and destruction anytime. It's the nature of free will and self determinism. And so an Alien advanced species could theoretically be very aggressive, though I still don't see it as an advantage or necessity.

Currently we need to redefine our definition of success as a people, who seek endless growth as progress. We need to find a balance with our ecology, until we've advanced enough to manufacturer new resources and colonize other places. The oceans, space stations, moons and planets.
 
Frankly, I'd argue that you're putting far too much emphasis on ideology, and not enough on simple logistics.

Societal progress isn't something that happens because people are "high minded" or "altruistic." To the contrary, it's generally most likely to occur when people are pushed outside of their comfort zone, and have to struggle to find some way to adapt.

In that regard, probably the single greatest driving force behind technological and social development in all of human history has been population growth, and the numerous problems that go along with it.

Even going as far back as the dawn of agriculture, to which you alluded, one of leading theories on why it came about in the first place has to do with the population explosion among pre-historic hunter-gatherer tribes which occurred at the end of the last ice age. There were simply too many hunters, and not enough game to go around. This prompted many groups to start looking for alternative food sources to fill in the deficit.

That alternative was probably "slash and burn" agriculture, followed shortly thereafter by seasonal planting.

In line with the population growth that particular development brought about, semi-permanent settlements slowly transformed into permanent villages, and permanent villages grew into cities. Those cities, in turn, eventually spread into empires, and full fledged civilizations, which ultimately brought us to where we are today, as the knowledge and incremental adaptations enacted by thousands of generations of "civilized" people building upon one another drove each new generation further forward.

It's simply the way of the world. :shrug:



In a sense, yes, but to be precise the single greatest motivator for rapid technological advancement is.... wait for it....


War.
 
In a sense, yes, but to be precise the single greatest motivator for rapid technological advancement is.... wait for it....


War.

Very true as well. :lol:

Though, I'd note that having large populations, and a need for the resources necessary to support them, is a large part of the reason why war became the massive scale industry that we see today in the first place.
 
Very true as well. :lol:

Though, I'd note that having large populations, and a need for the resources necessary to support them, is a large part of the reason why war became the massive scale industry that we see today in the first place.


Exactly.

The alien race we encounter might be the winners/survivors of a thousand years of warfare, who advanced technologically faster than their competitors.
 
I think we're more advanced logically, socially and emotionally than our predecessors. Though we're not necessarily better people, just more intelligent and evolved overall.

And I would expect that not only would we be more peaceful as we mature, so would most any advanced Alien species. I think it's a natural evolutionary progression away from violence and emotional impulses, as a species conquers all their natural predators and other environmental stressor's. It's always to our advantage to be cooperative as a race and with our environment for our continued survival and advancement.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I'm not even really sure what that means, let alone how one would go about measuring such a thing in definite terms. lol

I would certainly agree that we are a bit more "pleasant" than we were in the past. However, as I said, we have the luxury to be so, where past generations did not.

After all, it's easy to be "good," where nothing is really at stake. ;)

But as you note, we're an instinctual species by nature and could erupt into a global conflict of violence and destruction anytime. It's the nature of free will and self determinism. And so an Alien advanced species could theoretically be very aggressive, though I still don't see it as an advantage or necessity.

Frankly, if they go out of their way to alter their instinctual nature with genetic engineering, that could change the game entirely right then and there.

We could be dealing with anything from merciless "Spartan" drones bred for slaughter, to pacifists without a single violent bone in their body. lol

Currently we need to redefine our definition of success as a people, who seek endless growth as progress. We need to find a balance with our ecology, until we've advanced enough to manufacturer new resources and colonize other places. The oceans, space stations, moons and planets.

Time alone will tell.
 
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I think we should avoid contact with aliens... for the sake of them.
 
If an alien race has the technology to physically reach us then they are so technologically advanced that it would be ridiculous to suggest we can detect them but they can't detect us.
 
I think we're more advanced logically, socially and emotionally than our predecessors. Though we're not necessarily better people, just more intelligent and evolved overall.


I disagree. There has been no time for evolution, that happens on a geological timescale. Standards by which we judge what is "more advanced" have changed with our technology. EVERY society, all the way back considers their technology and themselves "more advanced" even when in the full course of history that just aint so.
 
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I'm not even really sure what that means, let alone how one would go about measuring such a thing in definite terms. lol

I would certainly agree that we are a bit more "pleasant" than we were in the past. However, as I said, we have the luxury to be so, where past generations did not.

After all, it's easy to be "good," where nothing is really at stake. ;)



Frankly, if they go out of their way to alter their instinctual nature with genetic engineering, that could change the game entirely right then and there.

We could be dealing with anything from merciless "Spartan" drones bred for slaughter, to pacifists without a single violent bone in their body. lol



Time alone will tell.


I don't believe that humans of today are near as superstitious, making us more intelligent, socially reasonable and emotionally mature.

Though that's a good point that we don't have to strive for resources near as hard, living off the efforts of previous generations. Humans may be the ultimate predator on earth but once we've conquered our environment, which we're close to doing, there's less reason, as you say, to continue in a violent nature. Which is much more destructive and costly than being peaceful.

Goshin was correct that Wars, like the second world war pushed humans to take a theory about atoms, and energy and in 5 years make a nuclear bomb. Left on our own initiative, we wouldn't have realized that potential for decades longer. But what the hell good is a bunch of H-bombs, besides preventing another world war?

The cold war though drove Nasa to the moon in a space race, and spawned a plethora of useful modern technologies, including computers. So, it's not just War that drives human advancement but stress from any kind of danger or necessity.

I just hope this current generation and it's successors can use the stress of being packed in like a can of sardines to make the needed changes to come. The problem I see with our time is the needs of the many being weighed against the needs of the individual. We seem very confused about the difference between personal freedom and political communal agreement.


I disagree. There has been no time for evolution, that happens on a geological timescale. Standards by which we judge what is "more advanced" have changed with our technology. EVERY society, all the way back considers their technology and themselves "more advanced" even when in the full course of history that just aint so.

So, the idea that humans are evolving into a more advanced species in science, technology, education, medicine, arts, infrastructure, etc is an illusion? We may be evolving extremely fast in comparison to other species or for a geological timescale, but it is what it is.

Evolving doesn't always mean "better" as much as change. Whether we're happier than people were in simpler times is not possible to compare. We're probably just different. Personally, I don't hardly recognize the world from the 1970's-1990's to now.
 
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