What do you think of this Quotes?

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

lizzie said:

It doesn't matter to me what the Bible, nor Twain says. To me, the perception that God has human qualities and motives is a shallow perception of God.

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God created us after his own likeness and image. Why should we assume that our own emotional structure isn't patterned after his?

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

Bob Blaylock said:

God created us after his own likeness and image. Why should we assume that our own emotional structure isn't patterned after his?

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I don't take that literally by any stretch of the imagination. God is a much larger concept than the human mind can fathom. Humans try to reduce God to their own understanding, when they really have no idea what it is.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

Applying Twain's logic to our earthly parents that he does with our Heavenly Parents, then if they taught their children right from wrong and set a perfect example yet some of their kids chose evil and misery, then they should have A/ created kids not capable of doing evil or B/ robbed them of their free agency to do evil.


“All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the "elect" have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle — keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.”-Mark Twain

If Twain had taken time to understand the Book of Mormon, maybe he wouldn't have written something as silly as this:

"A God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it."

Creating perfect kids without the ability to sin would only produce innocence like an infant. Never knowing misery but also never knowing joy. Without tasting bitter you cannot taste sweet. These "perfect" kids would know neither. They would have no real character, no real virtue, no real empathy like someone who was in the real world. This is not how Jesus became like His Father. Jesus overcame temptation, overcame the world. This denotes a struggle, a test of character, a character forged in adversity. He went beneath all, tasted bitter below all, and because of this He has an infinite fullness of joy.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

Bob Blaylock said:

God created us after his own likeness and image. Why should we assume that our own emotional structure isn't patterned after his?

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`
There are theoretically 12 dimensions of time/space in the omniverse or in the "many-worlds interpretation". We are 3D beings.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

If anyone doesn't understand my above post, let me know, and I'll try and reword it. Not the best writer.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

lizzie said:

I personally think it's pretty shallow to look at God in terms of having human emotions and motives.

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Anger, love, grace, kindness, patience, mercy. Just sayin

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

lizzie said:

I don't take that literally by any stretch of the imagination. God is a much larger concept than the human mind can fathom. Humans try to reduce God to their own understanding, when they really have no idea what it is.

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I couldn't have faith in a God that I didn't know the nature of. I couldn't have faith in the God of the Hellenized Christian philosophers. According to Jesus, if you know Him, you know the Father, because they are alike.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

LowDown said:

You can judge your father but you can't judge God. God is beyond your judgement. If you have a problem with God then it's your problem.

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I have no qualms with any god. I'm just saying that the logic of the story seems rather broken.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

laska said:

Applying Twain's logic to our earthly parents that he does with our Heavenly Parents, then if they taught their children right from wrong and set a perfect example yet some of their kids chose evil and misery, then they should have A/ created kids not capable of doing evil or B/ robbed them of their free agency to do evil.

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Except parents aren't all powerful - they can't do such a thing even if they wanted to. Supposedly God is.

laska said:

Creating perfect kids without the ability to sin would only produce innocence like an infant. Never knowing misery but also never knowing joy. Without tasting bitter you cannot taste sweet. These "perfect" kids would know neither. They would have no real character, no real virtue, no real empathy like someone who was in the real world. This is not how Jesus became like His Father. Jesus overcame temptation, overcame the world. This denotes a struggle, a test of character, a character forged in adversity. He went beneath all, tasted bitter below all, and because of this He has an infinite fullness of joy.

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A common response. And completely bollocks. You absolutely can know good and happiness and love without knowing pain and suffering. And, vice versa, you can know pain and suffering without knowing good. There are babies born with terrible genetic disorders and diseases who know nothing but pain for the short few hours or days they manage to keep breathing at the hospital, while the doctors desperately try to mend their little broken bodies. Are you seriously saying they don't know suffering just because they haven't known good? And the opposite is also true. Are you saying that a child growing up in a loving environment with caring parents isn't experiencing good, isn't experiencing love simply because he hasn't yet experienced terrible pain? That's ridiculous. Following such a ridiculous path of thought implies that we should tie children down and torture them, that way they can start to know good and happiness early on. It's absurd.

This kind of muddled thought comes from a misunderstanding of what experiencing pain does provide us. It provides us an additional experience - gratefulness. Gratefulness that we are no longer experiencing the suffering. Relief. It makes us aware that the good experiences we have in the future are not to be taken for granted (ie wisdom). BUT, and this is a very important but, that gratefulness that comes afterward doesn't (necessarily) justify the suffering from which it arises. If it did, then I could justify tying you down and torturing you - because the relief and gratefulness and wisdom that you would feel afterwards would make the horrible suffering you endured worth it. But we all know that's not true. It cannot be true - that's why gratefulness follows in the first place, why we're grateful to no longer experience the bad - because it's not worth it.

Now, I should qualify this by stating there are certainly some instances in which experiencing bad is worth it. For example, I consider the discomfort of working out justify the benefits that come afterward. That's not the kind of bad that requires "God to do some 'splaining". We're talking about the other kind, the senseless kind. The diseased, pain-wracked babies. Starvation. Torture. Dying in car accidents. Et cetera. How are they justifiable. (I'll give you a hint - they aren't)

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

the_recruit said:

Except parents aren't all powerful - they can't do such a thing even if they wanted to. Supposedly God is.

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The point is He wouldn't want to. And the omniscient God of Hellenized Christian philosophers cannot exist. God is bound by laws of light/truth. For example He cannot do evil and still be righteous, it is impossible to be both. LDS scriptures also explain that matter is eternal and that the intelligence of man was not created, but existed from eternity with God. Creation is using self existing eternal matter like a shipbuilder uses raw materials to create a ship instead of out of nothing. So God undermining free agency of other eternal intelligences would make him a tyrant, He would then not be obeying laws that organize eternal light/truth, and He would fall and no longer be God.

the_recruit said:

A common response. And completely bollocks. You absolutely can know good and happiness and love without knowing pain and suffering. And, vice versa, you can know pain and suffering without knowing good. There are babies born with terrible genetic disorders and diseases who know nothing but pain for the short few hours or days they manage to keep breathing at the hospital, while the doctors desperately try to mend their little broken bodies. Are you seriously saying they don't know suffering just because they haven't known good? And the opposite is also true. Are you saying that a child growing up in a loving environment with caring parents isn't experiencing good, isn't experiencing love simply because he hasn't yet experienced terrible pain? That's ridiculous. Following such a ridiculous path of thought implies that we should tie children down and torture them, that way they can start to know good and happiness early on. It's absurd.

This kind of muddled thought comes from a misunderstanding of what experiencing pain does provide us. It provides us an additional experience - gratefulness. Gratefulness that we are no longer experiencing the suffering. Relief. It makes us aware that the good experiences we have in the future are not to be taken for granted (ie wisdom). BUT, and this is a very important but, that gratefulness that comes afterward doesn't (necessarily) justify the suffering from which it arises. If it did, then I could justify tying you down and torturing you - because the relief and gratefulness and wisdom that you would feel afterwards would make the horrible suffering you endured worth it. But we all know that's not true. It cannot be true - that's why gratefulness follows in the first place, why we're grateful to no longer experience the bad - because it's not worth it.
Now, I should qualify this by stating there are certainly some instances in which experiencing bad is worth it. For example, I consider the discomfort of working out justify the benefits that come afterward. That's not the kind of bad that requires "God to do some 'splaining". We're talking about the other kind, the senseless kind. The diseased, pain-wracked babies. Starvation. Torture. Dying in car accidents. Et cetera. How are they justifiable. (I'll give you a hint - they aren't)

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God making magical children that will never experience a fall, never experience sin, cannot feel the type of joy or develop the type of character that someone who has lived in the real world and overcome. It would be like an athlete that never had to work to become great. If he was just great without having to do anything, he would not have the same joy of accomplishment or real character as someone whose talent was developed through blood, sweat, and tears.


We existed before being born on the earth as literal spirit offspring of Heavenly Parents. The trials here on earth are just a blink of an eye in duration compared to eternity. We didn't come down here not to be challenged. All sunshine creates a desert. This very short life, a nano second in our eternal journey, but a crucial one that determines what we become in the eternities and the limits that can be attained, is a test of faith, a test of our free agency. In the pre-mortal world we chose this path, and understood it was the only way to growth and becoming like our Heavenly Parents. We knew there would be innocent victims because of the bad choices people would make but there is no way to avoid it without undermining the purpose of mortality. Mortal death is just the temporary separation of the spirit from the body, and no one will miss out on any blessing cut short by the evil choices of others.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

Zinthaniel said:

The line of logic always seems like a cheap way to rationalize religious rhetoric to me.

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It is better than being presumptuous, I would think.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

"From our perspective, the childlike state of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden was not intended as the final state of mankind. For us to truly put on the divine nature and fulfill our destiny as glorified sons and daughters of God, it would be necessary for man to move beyond the innocence of the Garden and grapple with the dangerous gifts of knowledge and free agency. Why? That we might become more like Christ, even joint heirs with Him (Romans 8), destined to put on the divine nature (2 Peter 1) and become "like Him" (1 John 3:1). This required that we obtain the kind of knowledge and agency not available in the Garden. Remember, it was only after the Fall that the Lord said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil . . . ." (Genesis 3:22).

Mormanity - A Mormon Blog (But Not Just for Mormons): Adam and the Fall: God's Plan Thwarted?

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

Zinthaniel said:

A little context the quote is written by Mark Twain in his short story, "The Mysterious Stranger", in which (The following summary is from a user on goodreads) a group of boys meet an angel that has appeared one day. The angel’s name is Satan (no, not the Satan, merely his cousin, hence the same family name). Satan gives them an education, both through words and deeds, about some Ultimate Truths. Here’s a brief excerpt of his examination of God Himself:

What do you think of the excerpt? I had read it long ago and found it profound.

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I had seen an old movie that gave Satan's (the bad one) point of view. He lamented the injustice meted on him, how he's been made to be the antagonist for all eternity. The speech of Satan was so well done that you feel for him.

As for that quote itself.....would it have been more proper to have that delivered by Satan himself (the bad one)?
After all, aren't those the kinds of questions and observations a devil plants to erode faith? I say the nephew takes after his uncle.

The quote is amusing and interesting. But to me it's just simply a literary piece (another philosophical view by an author).

Does that quote make me question my God or my faith? No. Because of my personal experience(s) of God.
I'm not the only one who feels this way.



That quote is like coming from someone with a heavy grudge trying to smear his opponent - would you readily believe hearsay and reject a person based merely on what someone says?
If I believed and applied decision based on hearsay, I wouldn't have found a priceless friend who'd helped a lot in giving me self-confidence, nor would I have applied for a job that turned out to be rewarding.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

Zinthaniel said:

A little context the quote is written by Mark Twain in his short story, "The Mysterious Stranger", in which (The following summary is from a user on goodreads) a group of boys meet an angel that has appeared one day. The angel’s name is Satan (no, not the Satan, merely his cousin, hence the same family name). Satan gives them an education, both through words and deeds, about some Ultimate Truths. Here’s a brief excerpt of his examination of God Himself:



What do you think of the excerpt? I had read it long ago and found it profound.

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According to the bible god is the most vicious killer in history. He ordered the rape and murder of entire nations. He created a place specifically for those who don't do what he says where they can be tortured and suffer for all of eternity. Then, there won't be a shred of mercy from him for all of eternity.

Just think, according to the bible, most people that ever lived are being tortured brutally right now, and god could stop it at any moment, but won't. I could never bow to such a horrifically cruel tyrant, as it would violate my conscience and every bit of self-respect I have.

laska said:

"From our perspective, the childlike state of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden was not intended as the final state of mankind. For us to truly put on the divine nature and fulfill our destiny as glorified sons and daughters of God, it would be necessary for man to move beyond the innocence of the Garden and grapple with the dangerous gifts of knowledge and free agency. Why? That we might become more like Christ, even joint heirs with Him (Romans 8), destined to put on the divine nature (2 Peter 1) and become "like Him" (1 John 3:1). This required that we obtain the kind of knowledge and agency not available in the Garden. Remember, it was only after the Fall that the Lord said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil . . . ." (Genesis 3:22).

Mormanity - A Mormon Blog (But Not Just for Mormons): Adam and the Fall: God's Plan Thwarted?

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So, in order for a relatively few people to "become like christ", the majority of mankind must burn and suffer in hell. What a nice guy.

Goshin said:

I find it to be proof that Mark Twain does not understand God. Which is not surprising.

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Seems to me like he nailed it. God created us and the system around us so that most of us will burn in hell for all of eternity, when he just as easily could've made it a pleasant experience. Or say, made hell not eternal hellfire but just really long hellfire.

A commandment from "god":

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

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Re: What do you think of this Quote?

RabidAlpaca said:

According to the bible god is the most vicious killer in history. He ordered the rape and murder of entire nations. He created a place specifically for those who don't do what he says where they can be tortured and suffer for all of eternity. Then, there won't be a shred of mercy from him for all of eternity.

Just think, according to the bible, most people that ever lived are being tortured brutally right now, and god could stop it at any moment, but won't. I could never bow to such a horrifically cruel tyrant, as it would violate my conscience and every bit of self-respect I have.



So, in order for a relatively few people to "become like christ", the majority of mankind must burn and suffer in hell. What a nice guy.



Seems to me like he nailed it. God created us and the system around us so that most of us will burn in hell for all of eternity, when he just as easily could've made it a pleasant experience. Or say, made hell not eternal hellfire but just really long hellfire.

A commandment from "god":

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In regards to your response to my quote, you should take time to better understand before commenting. The LDS do not believe what you say.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

laska said:

In regards to your response to my quote, you should take time to better understand before commenting. The LDS do not believe what you say.

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Sure, you can deny the bible all you want, but it clearly and directly states that hell does exist and it is eternal. (On a side note, I'll never return to christianity, but if I did, it would much, much, much sooner be to LDS than any other branch, because of your views on universalism and lack of hell, but it does objectively contradict the bible.)

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

RabidAlpaca said:

Sure, you can deny the bible all you want, but it clearly and directly states that hell does exist and it is eternal. (On a side note, I'll never return to christianity, but if I did, it would much, much, much sooner be to LDS than any other branch, because you people have toned down the hate speech substantially and are more universalist.)

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With your significant other, a wise man would be hoping the LDS is true.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

laska said:

With your significant other, a wise man would be hoping the LDS is true.

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Aye, but there's the problem. I don't believe the universe, the gods, or whatever gives a damn about what I'm hoping for or my desires. I'd LOVE for there to be a heaven where I could be with my wife forever, but there's simply no evidence of that being the case.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

laska said:

I couldn't have faith in a God that I didn't know the nature of. I couldn't have faith in the God of the Hellenized Christian philosophers. According to Jesus, if you know Him, you know the Father, because they are alike.

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But I could also say that if you know me, you know the Father, as God is my father (metaphorically speaking) as well. My belief is that ALL of us are but mere expressions of God, as well as the moon and stars are expressions of it. To me, God is not human, but is the source of creativity itself.

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

I think the angel's name should have been Self Pity...

Re: What do you think of this Quote?

Twain was known to ridicule and hate god for the absurdity of things like slavery through out the world, imperialism first and the grave disappointments (deaths) in his personal life second. I am in agreement with his quotes on the insane worship of such a cruel god that creates people in situations of destitution with virtually no way out Hundreds of millions killed in wars in the name of national egos. One thought I had reading some of his quotes one of which addressed having "In God We Trust" on gold and silver coins, was how ridiculous for this or any country to have those words on it's monies of all things when the so called words of God forbid worship of riches.