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Why avoid considering God as noted?

I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?
It's just interesting to me that those who won't believe go to such great lengths to avoid the consideration of the Bible actually being the truth about God.
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.

...You mean figuring out the unknown?

Because humans are curious, that's all. And often times, figuring out how something works leads to an improvement in quality of life for people.

Attempting to live in the paradigm of religion is very simple: you have to believe something despite zero evidence, and oftentimes a lot of evidence to the contrary. We've all done that -- usually as small children. And personally, I find that it leads to a tendency to do nothing about one's problems, or to be unprepared for life.

There is no reason to accept a narrative that is based on nothing, or that flies in the face of established reality. Why should I merely accept that?

Being an atheist does not make one their own "god." I have to answer to others, not to mention my own reflection, just like anyone else does. But it certainly does free you up to try to find real solutions to real problems, rather than madly asking why when something blind-sides you that you falsely believed you had control over. Because ultimately, the original purpose of religion was to comfort people who knew nothing about the world and why things happen as they do by pretending they could know everything through a series of stories and rituals.

I have no reason to believe the bible is true just because the bible says it's true, especially when much of it is directly counter to known reality, and even the text itself can't agree on what it supposedly thinks is true. I am not so threatened by the unknowns of life that I need to pretend they aren't there. We don't know everything, I personally know much less than the collective human knowledge, and that's ok.

There are things we know, and there are things we don't know, and accepting what we don't know allows us to try to find a real answer, as opposed to comforting ourselves by pretending we do, and then doing nothing to try to solve the problem.
 
I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?
It's just interesting to me that those who won't believe go to such great lengths to avoid the consideration of the Bible actually being the truth about God.
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.
So you want Atheists to be more open-minded, give god a shot.
Which 'god' is that?
Have you given Voodoo a Chance?

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why You dismiss all the Other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

- Stephen Roberts
 
Pasch likes walls of text. ^_^

Your logic makes no sense to me. YOu say the bible contradicts itself, so throw it out as a rule book and let us make up our own rules. So in that latter instance, those cultures who do not follow God do make up their own rules. And when compared to each other are contradictory and easily judged to be evil by most reasonable people. So you really have nowhere to Go for a sound absolute set of rules. That is why I follow Christ.

That's a very arrogant stance to take. Are you really claiming that western Christian societies are more moral than all the others? If you are, then you don't seem to know very much about the rest of the world. It mainly just smacks of ethnocentrism and racism. By all means, attempt to back up that ludicrous position.

But I think it is a logical mistake to think that because the superstitious things have natural explanations, that all things we don't understand will be explained by science.
The possibility of a spiritual dimension is one. Science won't ever explain that I think.
The concepts of Love, ethical Truth (the way), Goodenss, and Justice are things science won't explain.

Sure we can explain those. They are easily explainable through our biology. We evolved as social creatures, but also with a strong sense of self. We attempt to live in an orderly society, and we form bonds with others. That prompts us to seek justice within our societies in order to promote stability, to love others, and to act with kindness and compassion to those in our society.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "ethical Truth (the way)". I don't think that's actually a thing.

All science is, is the examination of evidence according to a consistent and very successful method. It doesn't exclude anything. If there were any evidence of a spiritual dimension, science would examine it. Vague feelings that people have, myths and legends, and near death experiences are evidence of many things, but not of a spiritual dimension.

Meh, I don't think most atheists do avoid it. Often atheists were raised as believers or were at least exposed to the idea of God at a young impressionable age. As they get older and wiser, inconsistencies and unanswered questions begin to add up, eventually culminating in rejecting religion as an explanation for certain things.

Most atheists have considered "God as noted" at some point or another. But they find it lacking.

This is exactly what happened with me. I believed Judaism when I was young and didn't know any better. Then I grew up and learned how to think critically and realized how none of it made any sense.

It's funny, most atheists would say the same exact thing about religion. That the Bible and all its silliness are the made-up rules and that the non-believers are the ones following the trail of truth.

Atheists aren't atheists because they want to make up their own rules, they are atheists because they believe religion is a fairy tale.

I would say that we think this, or that we conclude it, rather than that we believe it. I would say that we don't really believe anything in the way that religious people believe their religion. As above, I believed Judaism in the sense that I believed the people who told me about it. But in the sense that people "believe" in god, in that they think there is such a thing despite how absurd it is and all the contradictory evidence... I don't think atheists believe anything like that.

Except walls of text. I apparently believe in those. :2razz:

And personally, I find that it leads to a tendency to do nothing about one's problems, or to be unprepared for life.

There are things we know, and there are things we don't know, and accepting what we don't know allows us to try to find a real answer, as opposed to comforting ourselves by pretending we do, and then doing nothing to try to solve the problem.

This. Very much this. One of the worst aspects, I find, to monotheistic religion is that it puts ultimate responsibility on someone else, and teaches us to just accept things as they seem to be, rather than inspire us to do something about it. If you think a god created all the hardships we face, then how can we rise above them?
 
It's funny, most atheists would say the same exact thing about religion. That the Bible and all its silliness are the made-up rules and that the non-believers are the ones following the trail of truth.
Atheists aren't atheists because they want to make up their own rules, they are atheists because they believe religion is a fairy tale.

Yet if you consider the difference, the rules are laid down by Christ for believers, and atheists make their own rules. Because you say they aren't atheists just so they can make up their own rules, that doesn't make it the truth.
There is nothing silly about the Bible. You can disbelieve, but to judge it silly is a serious rejection. Go carefully. You are betting your life on it.

The Wisdom of God

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”
 
...You mean figuring out the unknown?

Because humans are curious, that's all. And often times, figuring out how something works leads to an improvement in quality of life for people.

Attempting to live in the paradigm of religion is very simple: you have to believe something despite zero evidence, and oftentimes a lot of evidence to the contrary. We've all done that -- usually as small children. And personally, I find that it leads to a tendency to do nothing about one's problems, or to be unprepared for life.

There is no reason to accept a narrative that is based on nothing, or that flies in the face of established reality. Why should I merely accept that?

Being an atheist does not make one their own "god." I have to answer to others, not to mention my own reflection, just like anyone else does. But it certainly does free you up to try to find real solutions to real problems, rather than madly asking why when something blind-sides you that you falsely believed you had control over. Because ultimately, the original purpose of religion was to comfort people who knew nothing about the world and why things happen as they do by pretending they could know everything through a series of stories and rituals.

I have no reason to believe the bible is true just because the bible says it's true, especially when much of it is directly counter to known reality, and even the text itself can't agree on what it supposedly thinks is true. I am not so threatened by the unknowns of life that I need to pretend they aren't there. We don't know everything, I personally know much less than the collective human knowledge, and that's ok.

There are things we know, and there are things we don't know, and accepting what we don't know allows us to try to find a real answer, as opposed to comforting ourselves by pretending we do, and then doing nothing to try to solve the problem.

You have done a very good job of providing the state of atheism. Hat's off.
You say "zero evidence" but this isn't true is it? We have the entire Bible as evidence. So you have to reject that, if you will. But to say it = zero isn't the truth, if you can be honest.
You admit to a conscience being your guide. That is evidence of God.
I disagree that knowing God leads one to do nothing about one's problems. A relationship with Christ is the most life-changing experience many will ever encounter. As followers we do not kick back and let life happen. We work out the Lords will in our lives. Not doing this is akin to unbelief. I'll admit that many "Christians" stay in this state, but it isn't what Christ would have us do.

I disagree again on your "religion explains everything" statement. As Christians we don't know all things. We trust that the Lord does, and is working things out according to his plan. Those who understand this are not blind-sided.

Believing in the spiritual side is based on faith, not science. On that I agree with you. But because science can't prove it does not mean it isn't the truth. It explains much if you let yourself go there. There is no need to reject it based on lack of scientific proofs. If the paradigm does not contradict itself, and tends to explain the world we live in, then this is scientific reason to allow it.
Men have been trying to "get it right" without God for all of recorded history. Yet the world / humans are no better than they ever were. We have iPhones now, but that isn't really an indicator of having it right. Having it right is a conscience thing, as you indicate. It has nothing to do with scientific advancement and understanding of our physical world. It has to do with understanding how and why we are made. Our soul if you will.
Science can never approach this subject.
 
So you want Atheists to be more open-minded, give god a shot.
Which 'god' is that?
Have you given Voodoo a Chance?

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why You dismiss all the Other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

- Stephen Roberts

At first I dismissed all Gods, as you do. But after reading, and yes, I spent considerable time reading about other gods, I found I could not dismiss my God. I could not dismiss Christ.
So Stephen had it wrong. I think he doesn't understand why he dismisses my God.
It does make sense that there is One God who created all. Even philosophy agrees with this. So all MUST be false, but one.
 
Pasch likes walls of text. ^_^

That's a very arrogant stance to take. Are you really claiming that western Christian societies are more moral than all the others? If you are, then you don't seem to know very much about the rest of the world. It mainly just smacks of ethnocentrism and racism. By all means, attempt to back up that ludicrous position.
.......

No, I am not claiming that any society is more moral. We are all human. I believe it can be scientifically shown that we are all evil. Just go read the headlines in any eastern or western country. They are all full of the same kinds of evil. This is what men do by nature. We seek self.
It has nothing to do with race, culture, or even God, as there are far more who reject him in a given society than accept and live by His word.
What I am claiming as "more moral" is Christ. He was absolutely moral, and guides us to that end if we will listen.
 
I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
More specific? What narrative? Alternative explanation to the Bible? Well that's because people are following the evidence and the evidence doesn't lead you to Adam and Eve 6000 years ago or a global flood 4000 years ago, or an exodus etc. etc. etc.

Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

No. If I tried that I'd spend the rest of my life living in "proposed paradigms" to see if any of them are true. It's just not necessary and not logical. Besides, I've read most of the bible, been to quite a few churches, was raised in Christianity. If that wasn't "giving it a shot" then what exactly do you want? I can't just turn my brain off and act like it's all true. It doesn't work like that.

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?
It's just interesting to me that those who won't believe go to such great lengths to avoid the consideration of the Bible actually being the truth about God.
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.

Do you mind giving any kind of specifics at all? What great lengths? I've considered the claims in the bible and have reached my conclusion. It has nothing to do with avoidance, just like you aren't avoiding any of the thousands of gods that you don't believe in.

I am not my own God. This is a silly talking point to try to make people feel guilty for not believing. Yes, I determine my own morals, and guess what, you do to. Every one does. Because if your morals truly, and I mean 100% in no way twisting the words of the bible, got your morals from the bible, you'd be what is classified as a sadistic psychopath. Luckily most Christians and other religious people just pick out the nice happy parts and focus on that.

Takes more faith to be an atheist? So you're saying it takes more faith to have no faith? What do atheists have faith in? Believing the evidence and rejecting wild claims that are provided without evidence doesn't involve faith. Saying "I don't know exactly how the universe was started" requires no faith. Saying "I lack belief in a god" doesn't require faith.


Many atheists remind me of The Borg; religion is irrelevant. They want you to believe there are only scientific (physical) explanations for everything. Anything spiritual must be cleansed from the Earth.

Religion isn't irrelevant. If it makes you happy and doesn't infringe upon anyone's rights, then go for it. More power to ya. All I want is that if your religion is completely faith based, as Christianity is, then keep it out of the public schools and don't take a single cent of my tax dollars towards anything religious. Spiritual explanations are fine, but look at history.

How many spiritual explanations have been replaced with scientific, naturalistic explanations over the years? hundreds, if not thousands. Evolution, big bang, plate techtonics, germ theory, etc etc. How many scientific, naturalistic explanations have been replaced with spiritualistic explanations over the years? Zero? The smarter the human race gets, and the more scientific discoveries we make, the smaller your god gets. He has went from a man in the sky, coming down and visiting, performing miricles, sending plagues, sending global floods, sending angels etc. no now, completely invisible, completely undetectable, he's the guy who put everything into motion and then evolution and everything else took over. He is a god of the gaps. He is a shrug of the shoulders and a refusal to just admit the plain obvious truth. You don't know.
 
More specific? What narrative? Alternative explanation to the Bible? Well that's because people are following the evidence and the evidence doesn't lead you to Adam and Eve 6000 years ago or a global flood 4000 years ago, or an exodus etc. etc. etc.
...

Have to run, but will respond this evening.
 
You have done a very good job of providing the state of atheism. Hat's off.
You say "zero evidence" but this isn't true is it? We have the entire Bible as evidence. So you have to reject that, if you will. But to say it = zero isn't the truth, if you can be honest.
You admit to a conscience being your guide. That is evidence of God.
I disagree that knowing God leads one to do nothing about one's problems. A relationship with Christ is the most life-changing experience many will ever encounter. As followers we do not kick back and let life happen. We work out the Lords will in our lives. Not doing this is akin to unbelief. I'll admit that many "Christians" stay in this state, but it isn't what Christ would have us do.

I disagree again on your "religion explains everything" statement. As Christians we don't know all things. We trust that the Lord does, and is working things out according to his plan. Those who understand this are not blind-sided.

Believing in the spiritual side is based on faith, not science. On that I agree with you. But because science can't prove it does not mean it isn't the truth. It explains much if you let yourself go there. There is no need to reject it based on lack of scientific proofs. If the paradigm does not contradict itself, and tends to explain the world we live in, then this is scientific reason to allow it.
Men have been trying to "get it right" without God for all of recorded history. Yet the world / humans are no better than they ever were. We have iPhones now, but that isn't really an indicator of having it right. Having it right is a conscience thing, as you indicate. It has nothing to do with scientific advancement and understanding of our physical world. It has to do with understanding how and why we are made. Our soul if you will.
Science can never approach this subject.

The bible is not "evidence." It is merely a series of claims. If I claim the sky is green, that is not evidence. It is a claim.

If I say, for example, "bacteria are real," that is just a claim. The evidence would be microscopic observation and images, analysis on infected tissues, and indirect evidence on things that influence bacteria like antibiotics.

The bible does nothing but make a series of claims.

And what makes your religion correct? There are hundreds of other religions claiming they're correct in exactly the same way Christianity does: they make a circular, illogical argument that simply claiming that their religion is the ultimate truth, that makes it so. What makes your religion any different? Your claims are as baseless as anybody else's.

How is my conscience evidence of god? Do you merely assume that if you personally don't know where something comes from, clearly god did it? There was a time when people used to think that about the method by which the sun rose. Didn't turn out to be true, now did it?

As an aside, we actually know how empathy and justice works, where they are located in the brain, and all social mammals display them. They're necessary for social mammals to work together, not just humans. There is no need for "god" to have done any of it.

This is what I mean about the ignorance and inaction religion causes by claiming to know everything. You didn't happen to be aware of where conscience comes from, so you just assumed god did it because it makes you more comfortable, and everything you don't know is clearly done by god. It's a silly assumption to begin with, but as it just so happens, there is actually real knowledge out there that contradicts you.

And what has religion done? Religion has stopped you from finding that knowledge, because you think you already know the answer. This is what I mean. Here is a perfect example of the way religion disables people.

The real world is fascinating, dude. And you're missing out on it, because learning things would force you to admit that life is strange and complex and you don't have all the answers.

But even if we knew none of that, simply claiming "goddidit" would not make you right. That is just an empty claim.

It sure does make people think they know everything, because they decide that, at the very least, they're best buddies with the dude who does know everything, and if they make the dude happy, it'll be ok. They just have to hug the dude who knows everything, and he'll make it all work out. In its most vile form, this can even go so far as to make life expendable -- all that matters is what comes after.

It is not simply an issue of science being unable to prove faith-based claims. It is not even an issue of faith-based claim coming into direct conflict with proven science, although many do, including Christianity. It is not even an issue of many faith-based claims conflicting each other, even within the same religion -- again, although many do, including Christianity. Here is the biggest issue. Pay attention.

There is no suggestion whatsoever, in any corner of reality on the face of the earth, that any of these claims are real. None. Zip. Nada.

Even if we had no scientific knowledge whatsoever, even if all your religious texts were perfectly in agreement with each other, that alone would be a good enough reason to reject religious claims out of hand. There is no reason why anyone should believe things on an empty claim.

If I tell you crickets are real, I don't need to conduct a scientific study to prove it to you. I just need to show you a cricket.

There are all these claims about all these things that supposedly happened here on Earth, or affect the outcome of things here on Earth, and yet there has never been even the tiniest shred of suggestion that any of them ever existed in reality.

And that's saying nothing of all the conflicting claims within the bible itself, or all the places where the bible makes what we now know are completely ridiculous claims about the way the world works, or the fact that even a basic logical math equation proves your god to be either malevolent or logically impossible, or the circularity of the bible claiming that it is correct because the bible says it's correct.

Forget all of that.

It is the simple fact that reality does not support the concept of your faith. Period.

And actually, the modern age is the best that has ever been. We have less violence, longer, happier lives, more charity, less oppression, and less starving than ever before. That is true worldwide overall. Even the places that are bad are not as bad as bad used to be. The countries with the shortest life expectancies still have longer ones than what we had only 200 years ago.

And guess what else we have?

An increasingly non-religious population -- especially in the very best places on Earth.

What a shame religion gives you such a misanthropic view of the world.
 
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I think Christ was pretty clear on "The Way" so it would seem that Christianity is stating that God is one, and anything else is not God.
Can you get there without Christ? That's up to God. There are a couple of scriptures that one might use to equivocate, but what Christ said was pretty straight forward with his "No man comes to the Father but by me" statement.
He did say though: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd"
but I think this was probably applicable to the Gentiles who would eventually hear the Shepards voice and believe.

Hello. That doesn't really answer the question of why Christianity is the 'way to go', and everything else is false. Even though I think Jesus was a cool cat, I tend not to listen to messages that are exclusionary and conditional.
 
Yet if you consider the difference, the rules are laid down by Christ for believers, and atheists make their own rules.

....uh-huh. You already said that. And then I said from the atheist perspective the opposite is the case.

Because you say they aren't atheists just so they can make up their own rules, that doesn't make it the truth.

Surely. Likewise it doesn't make it the case that the Bible is true just because the Bible says so. What makes facts true is whether objective reality is so. And that has nothing to do with what you or I say is reality is or what you or I want reality to be.

There is nothing silly about the Bible. You can disbelieve, but to judge it silly is a serious rejection.

Silly is one of the milder accusations I could level against the Bible. I could have done much worse but I was feeling polite.

Go carefully. You are betting your life on it.

:roll: Oh spare me. Threats of hell and eternal torture won't make me kowtow. They tend to have the opposite effect really. But I understand religion's need for such measures.
 
More specific? What narrative? Alternative explanation to the Bible? Well that's because people are following the evidence and the evidence doesn't lead you to Adam and Eve 6000 years ago or a global flood 4000 years ago, or an exodus etc. etc. etc.



No. If I tried that I'd spend the rest of my life living in "proposed paradigms" to see if any of them are true. It's just not necessary and not logical. Besides, I've read most of the bible, been to quite a few churches, was raised in Christianity. If that wasn't "giving it a shot" then what exactly do you want? I can't just turn my brain off and act like it's all true. It doesn't work like that.



Do you mind giving any kind of specifics at all? What great lengths? I've considered the claims in the bible and have reached my conclusion. It has nothing to do with avoidance, just like you aren't avoiding any of the thousands of gods that you don't believe in.

I am not my own God. This is a silly talking point to try to make people feel guilty for not believing. Yes, I determine my own morals, and guess what, you do to. Every one does. Because if your morals truly, and I mean 100% in no way twisting the words of the bible, got your morals from the bible, you'd be what is classified as a sadistic psychopath. Luckily most Christians and other religious people just pick out the nice happy parts and focus on that.

Takes more faith to be an atheist? So you're saying it takes more faith to have no faith? What do atheists have faith in? Believing the evidence and rejecting wild claims that are provided without evidence doesn't involve faith. Saying "I don't know exactly how the universe was started" requires no faith. Saying "I lack belief in a god" doesn't require faith.




Religion isn't irrelevant. If it makes you happy and doesn't infringe upon anyone's rights, then go for it. More power to ya. All I want is that if your religion is completely faith based, as Christianity is, then keep it out of the public schools and don't take a single cent of my tax dollars towards anything religious. Spiritual explanations are fine, but look at history.

How many spiritual explanations have been replaced with scientific, naturalistic explanations over the years? hundreds, if not thousands. Evolution, big bang, plate techtonics, germ theory, etc etc. How many scientific, naturalistic explanations have been replaced with spiritualistic explanations over the years? Zero? The smarter the human race gets, and the more scientific discoveries we make, the smaller your god gets. He has went from a man in the sky, coming down and visiting, performing miricles, sending plagues, sending global floods, sending angels etc. no now, completely invisible, completely undetectable, he's the guy who put everything into motion and then evolution and everything else took over. He is a god of the gaps. He is a shrug of the shoulders and a refusal to just admit the plain obvious truth. You don't know.

Since we don't have complete explanation of how the universe was actually made, and no explanation whatsoever about how all matter was made or what caused the big bang, your statement here is total bull****. So your science has possibly reduced the size of God from infinite to an inch smaller. We're not as damn smart as you think we are. The more we learn, the more we realize we don't know. Arrogance is becoming a huge problem in the politics of science. Let me see science make a living cell out of the raw materials of atomic elements without copying any other cell or using the existing parts of any cell. Let me see science truly create something like that, and make it work consistantly. First form the molecules then the DNA and all the other parts from mere elements. Then get back to me on how small God is in creating the entire Universe.
 
A fair point that some atheists make is that Christians themselves are atheists for every religion except their own.
 
I agree that some attributes ascribed to God and natural. Getting struck by lightning is probably a good example. I think God probably strikes very few folks with a bolt from the sky.
But I think it is a logical mistake to think that because the superstitious things have natural explanations, that all things we don't understand will be explained by science.
The possibility of a spiritual dimension is one. Science won't ever explain that I think.
The concepts of Love, ethical Truth (the way), Goodenss, and Justice are things science won't explain.

It is possible. But given the choice between nature and magic, nature is the more likely answer.
 
Since we don't have complete explanation of how the universe was actually made, and no explanation whatsoever about how all matter was made or what caused the big bang, your statement here is total bull****.
Yea, no. That doesn't go against my statement at all. My statement is that the more we figure out, the more we determine "oh ok, we don't need a god for that." Please give me an example where we have thrown out a scientific, naturalistic theory and instead have shown that a supernatural cause better fit reality. Just one. Instead all we see is the super natural slowly fading away. I know that makes you uncomfortable, but that's none of my concern.


So your science has possibly reduced the size of God from infinite to an inch smaller.
Id argue it's much more than an inch, but regardless, you have just admitted that science is reducing god, and rightfully so. So we agree on this.

We're not as damn smart as you think we are. The more we learn, the more we realize we don't know. Arrogance is becoming a huge problem in the politics of science.
You don't know how smart I think we are because I haven't specified that. So you are attacking an argument I haven't made.

Yes, everytime we mke a discovery we find out that there is even more that we don't understand. But at least we are finding that out, and it in no way discounts that which we are discovering. It seems like you are almost complaining about our discoveries. As if they aren't important at all. Are you really willing to make that argument just so that your god doesn't get any smaller?

Let me see science make a living cell out of the raw materials of atomic elements without copying any other cell or using the existing parts of any cell. Let me see science truly create something like that, and make it work consistantly. First form the molecules then the DNA and all the other parts from mere elements. Then get back to me on how small God is in creating the entire Universe.

They are working on that. As I've said, as of right now, we aren't sure of everything about the very beginnings. But thankfully our best and brightest are working on it.

But I'd like to know, do you think that this argument in any way validates your god? You keep talking about that which we don't know. The very definition of a god of the gaps. Do you really go through life thinking that "god did it" is the default position until proven otherwise? Do you think it was wise to believe that Zeus was throwing lightning bolts down until we figured out the real reason? I bet the people arguing that and saying "well YOU don't know how the lightning gets here do you?" thought they were making iron clad arguments for Zeus. In reality they were making a huge argument from ignorance fallacy.
 
No, I am not claiming that any society is more moral. We are all human. I believe it can be scientifically shown that we are all evil. Just go read the headlines in any eastern or western country. They are all full of the same kinds of evil. This is what men do by nature. We seek self.
It has nothing to do with race, culture, or even God, as there are far more who reject him in a given society than accept and live by His word.
What I am claiming as "more moral" is Christ. He was absolutely moral, and guides us to that end if we will listen.

Oh so you do think that good and evil can be addressed by science. Good to know that. But you're still suggesting that cultures that utilize your religion are more moral. But we do agree on one point. Some of what Jesus said is actually good stuff. So why have Christians spend almost all their energy doing other things, like murdering Jews, oppressing women, hating gays, killing each other, vying for political power, killing heretics, and not feeding the poor, turning the other cheek, or loving their neighbors?

You say "zero evidence" but this isn't true is it? We have the entire Bible as evidence. So you have to reject that, if you will. But to say it = zero isn't the truth, if you can be honest.

It's evidence of some things, but not of any gods. Just the same way that the Lord of the Rings isn't evidence of wizards, elves, or dwarves. It's evidence of the ideas of those things. It's evidence of JRR Tolkien. It's evidence of various literary styles and tropes. But it's not evidence of any kind of magic or supernatural things. The same is true of the myth of Anansi the spider, and the same is true of the bible. It's not evidence for god, as its existence doesn't actually make god more likely to exist.

You admit to a conscience being your guide. That is evidence of God.

You will, ironically, need a lot of evidence to back up that assertion. Not only must you define "conscience", you must prove a supernatural source for it, and prove which supernatural source that is. Even if you could show that it is evidence of a god, I don't see how you're going to show that it's your god and not Tiamat or Amaterasu.

Believing in the spiritual side is based on faith, not science. On that I agree with you. But because science can't prove it does not mean it isn't the truth. It explains much if you let yourself go there. There is no need to reject it based on lack of scientific proofs. If the paradigm does not contradict itself, and tends to explain the world we live in, then this is scientific reason to allow it.

But it does contradict itself, and it doesn't tend to explain the world we live in. Not at all.

Men have been trying to "get it right" without God for all of recorded history. Yet the world / humans are no better than they ever were. We have iPhones now, but that isn't really an indicator of having it right. Having it right is a conscience thing, as you indicate.

And this, right here, is the complacency. You think we cannot possibly improve, but we clearly do. Often. We used to think that some people were born to rule and others to serve. We used to openly endorse slavery. We used to treat women as property. Well, I guess that Christianity tends to think that those things are good, but we've rejected those things and proclaimed that everyone is fundamentally equal. Humanity has made a lot of progress over the ages, and we're still making more. Never once have we done this because a deity made it happen. We did it ourselves. And if you refuse to acknowledge that this can happen, you will never contribute to this.

It has nothing to do with scientific advancement and understanding of our physical world. It has to do with understanding how and why we are made. Our soul if you will.
Science can never approach this subject.

Sure it can. Science is the method by which we evaluate evidence for or against the existence of these souls. The credible evidence isn't there. We conclude that these souls probably don't exist, since they don't seem to do anything or impact our existence in any kind of meaningful way.

I don't think you really understand what science is. It's a method for analyzing information. It doesn't require a lab coat. It doesn't require complex mathematics. It's just a formalized way of analyzing data that yields better results than any other way. The only way for something to be "beyond science" or "something science can never approach" is if there is no information to examine.
 
Yea, no. That doesn't go against my statement at all. My statement is that the more we figure out, the more we determine "oh ok, we don't need a god for that." Please give me an example where we have thrown out a scientific, naturalistic theory and instead have shown that a supernatural cause better fit reality. Just one. Instead all we see is the super natural slowly fading away. I know that makes you uncomfortable, but that's none of my concern.


Id argue it's much more than an inch, but regardless, you have just admitted that science is reducing god, and rightfully so. So we agree on this.

You don't know how smart I think we are because I haven't specified that. So you are attacking an argument I haven't made.

Yes, everytime we mke a discovery we find out that there is even more that we don't understand. But at least we are finding that out, and it in no way discounts that which we are discovering. It seems like you are almost complaining about our discoveries. As if they aren't important at all. Are you really willing to make that argument just so that your god doesn't get any smaller?



They are working on that. As I've said, as of right now, we aren't sure of everything about the very beginnings. But thankfully our best and brightest are working on it.

But I'd like to know, do you think that this argument in any way validates your god? You keep talking about that which we don't know. The very definition of a god of the gaps. Do you really go through life thinking that "god did it" is the default position until proven otherwise? Do you think it was wise to believe that Zeus was throwing lightning bolts down until we figured out the real reason? I bet the people arguing that and saying "well YOU don't know how the lightning gets here do you?" thought they were making iron clad arguments for Zeus. In reality they were making a huge argument from ignorance fallacy.

We haven't really reduced God, because you can't create a universe yet, and when you do we would be gods to those who can't. All you've accomplished is the ability to possibly explain the tiniest fraction. Understand, EXPLAIN ONLY, not actually do it yourself. Thinking you've reduced God is arrogance.
 
We haven't really reduced God, because you can't create a universe yet, and when you do we would be gods to those who can't. All you've accomplished is the ability to possibly explain the tiniest fraction. Understand, EXPLAIN ONLY, not actually do it yourself. Thinking you've reduced God is arrogance.

Its not arrogance at all. It's fact. Look at the claims people used to make about god, look at the claims they make now. It's a fact that the god concept has been reduced. And you pointing out that we can't create a universe (AGAIN, the definition of argument from ignorance fallacy) does nothing to change that.

The Christian god used to explain that the earth and everything was 6000 years old, we all started from Adam and Eve, we had a global flood 4000 years ago and saved a pair of every animal, that slavery was ok (Leviticus 25:44-46 and others) and on and on. And we now know that all of this is wrong, and our morality has since grown enough for us all to easily say that slavery is wrong. To say that our discoveries and our advancements in philosophy, morality, and especially science haven't reduced your god then you're just ignoring reality and the evidence.

And what's wrong with explaining? It's not good enough that we have a full understanding and explanation of germ theory of disease? It's not good enough until we can create some germs out of thin air?
 
Its not arrogance at all. It's fact. Look at the claims people used to make about god, look at the claims they make now. It's a fact that the god concept has been reduced. And you pointing out that we can't create a universe (AGAIN, the definition of argument from ignorance fallacy) does nothing to change that.

The Christian god used to explain that the earth and everything was 6000 years old, we all started from Adam and Eve, we had a global flood 4000 years ago and saved a pair of every animal, that slavery was ok (Leviticus 25:44-46 and others) and on and on. And we now know that all of this is wrong, and our morality has since grown enough for us all to easily say that slavery is wrong. To say that our discoveries and our advancements in philosophy, morality, and especially science haven't reduced your god then you're just ignoring reality and the evidence.

And what's wrong with explaining? It's not good enough that we have a full understanding and explanation of germ theory of disease? It's not good enough until we can create some germs out of thin air?

Define a year.
 
Define a year.

The period of time it takes for the earth to revolve around the sun. And I figured that out without god.

What's your point. You're not helping your case.
 
The period of time it takes for the earth to revolve around the sun. And I figured that out without god.

No. You didn't. You were told. How do you know that the first guy that figured that out did so without God? You don't.

What's your point. You're not helping your case.

If it makes you feel better about it all, try substituting "a very, very long time" for each and every Biblical reference to time and creation. Just because certain fundamentalists insist that the Bible be taken as dispositive in every statement doesn't mean that other Christians don't have a more expansive view - and that would be the vast, vast majority of them if you're consensus minded.
 
If it makes you feel better about it all, try substituting "a very, very long time" for each and every Biblical reference to time and creation. Just because certain fundamentalists insist that the Bible be taken as dispositive in every statement doesn't mean that other Christians don't have a more expansive view - and that would be the vast, vast majority of them if you're consensus minded.

The 6000 years estimate was arrived at by taking the age of the lineage of everyone posted in the bible and adding it up. We are not discussing the "on the first day" genesis account. So your point is moot.

And that's perfectly fine if you don't believe every word of the bible. It's completely understandable that a perfect god would have an imperfect book.

try substituting "a very, very long time" for each and every Biblical reference to time and creation.

So you're argument, literally, is "well we can always just change what it says in the bible if we don't like it..."

Pure genius. Why should words actually matter?
 
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.

Faith is the only path to salvation. To have more is better.
 
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