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Religion = Believing in Magic

calamity said:
I've encountered a few die hard religious followers who insist that their religion does not include a belief in magic. I basically argued that religion is a belief in magic along with cult-like adherence to various ritual and leadership worship. Where the line between religion and belief in magic lies is blurry and, in most cultures, is impossible to distinguish.

Of course, they argued that Christianity is not like Voodoo worship and the like. To which I chuckled and now started this thread here.

BTW: In Christ based religions, the magical beliefs are obvious to outsiders like me. Christ was conceived by magic; he lived a magical life: walking on water, creating food from thin air, raising people from the dead, making the blind see, etc.; he himself even rose from the dead, and the ultimate, Jesus magically transports his followers to heaven upon their deaths. All of that is a belief in magic.


So, is religion a belief in magic?
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I am okay with that.
 
zyzygy said:
I live in Belgium. I have a wide circle of friends and acquaintances, none of them go to church. Nobody discusses religion and the word god is just an expletive and nobody cares if you believe in a a god or not.
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The US is not nearly as evolved as Western Europe. When it comes to superstition and religion, we are a bit more like Sub Saharan Africa, if you asked me. Americans are remarkably backward when it comes to using reasoning skills over believing ancient myths handed down over generations.
 
calamity said:
The US is not nearly as evolved as Western Europe. When it comes to superstition and religion, we are a bit more like Sub Saharan Africa, if you asked me. Americans are remarkably backward when it comes to using reasoning skills over believing ancient myths handed down over generations.
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During my forty years here not one person has ever asked me if I am a believer or if I go to church. Nobody cares if you are religious or not. Perhaps I do know some believers, but they don't go to church and never mention their faith. I just assume that everyone I know is atheist or agnostic because religion seems to play no part in daily life here. It's nominally a Catholic country so the only time that I see my friends in a church is at marriage, christening, funeral or school concert. I know many couples who got married in church only never to set foot in one again, apart from the aforementioned social rituals. The States do seem to be behind the times in the Western World. Of course the only info I have is sites like this, all religious people in the States can't be as bad as some of the Rapture fans , End Times,Noah and Adam and Eve believers that we get here.

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/News/1.1862161
 
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zyzygy said:
During my forty years here not one person has ever asked me if I am a believer or if I go to church. Nobody cares if you are religious or not. Perhaps I do know some believers, but they don't go to church and never mention their faith. I just assume that everyone I know is atheist or agnostic because religion seems to play no part in daily life here. It's nominally a Catholic country so the only time that I see my friends in a church is at marriage, christening, funeral or school concert. I know many couples who got married in church only never to set foot in one again, apart from the aforementioned social rituals. The States do seem to be behind the times in the Western World. Of course the only info I have is sites like this, all religious people in the States can't be as bad as some of the Rapture fans , End Times,Noah and Adam and Eve believers that we get here.

Foreign priests from Leuven University to the rescue!
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Statistics tell an ugly story. Going by memory: over half of Americans believe God created man in his present form and believe Noah's Ark was real, while almost 3/4 believe in the immaculate conception and the resurrection of Christ. Fewer than 10% admit to being atheist or agnostic. A sure way to not get elected here is to deny belief in Jesus, unless you are a practicing Jew--then you get a temporary pass from some.
 
Oh brother.

calamity said:
A society which hangs its hat on belief in magic is doomed to fail because while americans fall behind and pray that their god keeps the candles lit, the secular societies of Southeastern Asia and Western Europe develop high-speed trains, install fiber optics so their countires were wired to the Internet, give their people healthcare, provide everyone a well-rounded education, and modernize their cities such that people actually enjoy being in them.
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Without supernatural magic, otherwise popular dogma would simply become a minor philosophy.
Magic is at the HEART of all religion.
It's what sells it.
Take Christianity for example.
If all you knew was someone came up to you and said; There was this guy who lived a couple of thousand years ago and he said we should all be good to each other and help everyone you can because it is the right thing to do...
Who the heck is going to give money to that ?
 
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calamity said:
A society which hangs its hat on belief in magic is doomed to fail because while americans fall behind and pray that their god keeps the candles lit, the secular societies of Southeastern Asia and Western Europe develop high-speed trains, install fiber optics so their countires were wired to the Internet, give their people healthcare, provide everyone a well-rounded education, and modernize their cities such that people actually enjoy being in them.
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Nice reach but if anyone is a magician it's you and with this post, it's as you have an amazing ability to pull endless crap out from your sleeve.
 
serato said:
Nice reach but if anyone is a magician it's you and with this post, it's as you have an amazing ability to pull endless crap out from your sleeve.
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Have you seen the pictures comparing Detroit to Hiroshima? Detroit today is what religion buys you. Hiroshima, otoh, is what can be built when a society ditches the silly myths and superstitions.
 
TobyOne said:
Oh brother.
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Well, as we slide ever closer to becoming a backwards nation like Nigeria while Germany, France and Japan build high speed trains, more people will see the folly of promiting superstition and myth.
 
calamity said:
Have you seen the pictures comparing Detroit to Hiroshima? Detroit today is what religion buys you. Hiroshima, otoh, is what can be built when a society ditches the silly myths and superstitions.
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Lol stop with the tricks already and let's book you a stage in Vegas.
 
serato said:
Lol stop with the tricks already and let's book you a stage in Vegas.
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Da Nile is not only a river in Egypt. It flows through the veins of many Americans too. It seems.
 
Oh, the humanity.

calamity said:
Well, as we slide ever closer to becoming a backwards nation like Nigeria while Germany, France and Japan build high speed trains, more people will see the folly of promiting superstition and myth.
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calamity said:
Da Nile is not only a river in Egypt. It flows through the veins of many Americans too. It seems.
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To suggest only a secular society can build magnificent cities and go as far as to say Southeast Asia is running game on everyone else is like, whaaaat(?) Many of the coolest buildings around the globe are built by American construction companies and a personal friend of mine happens to own one of the largest in the country. He’s erecting some very high-tech towers in Asia and the Middle East and he’s American and living in New Jersey and he’s not an Atheist. So let’s not give these secular Asians too much credit. To have one nice city sitting in the middle of poverty doesn’t impress me.
 
Buck Ewer said:
Without supernatural magic, otherwise popular dogma would simply become a minor philosophy.
Magic is at the HEART of all religion.
It's what sells it.
Take Christianity for example.
If all you knew was someone came up to you and said; There was this guy who lived a couple of thousand years ago and he said we should all be good to each other and help everyone you can because it is the right thing to do...
Who the heck is going to give money to that ?
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Isn't that what most charity, religious and non religious, is?


calamity said:
Well, as we slide ever closer to becoming a backwards nation like Nigeria while Germany, France and Japan build high speed trains, more people will see the folly of promiting superstition and myth.
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Strawman much? WTH does religion have to do with whether or not we build high speed trains and other similar projects? Is there some religious group calling high speed trains immoral and the work of Satan?
 
calamity said:
Have you seen the pictures comparing Detroit to Hiroshima? Detroit today is what religion buys you. Hiroshima, otoh, is what can be built when a society ditches the silly myths and superstitions.
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Believing in God means destruction? Funny, some of the oldest buildings on earth were built by religious societies. Hum but now it's opposite?
 
Magic ? Nope. If it were I could learn how to breath on some mud and have a guy become from it.
 
calamity said:
The US is not nearly as evolved as Western Europe. When it comes to superstition and religion, we are a bit more like Sub Saharan Africa, if you asked me. Americans are remarkably backward when it comes to using reasoning skills over believing ancient myths handed down over generations.
Click to expand...

I’ve always considered not just Western Europe but all of Europe and most of the world to be far more superstitious than North America. And after spending five years attending Fasching in Switzerland, a seemingly innocent festival held yearly in the winter, throw a snowball at one of them as they parade downtown in full costume and quickly realize just how serious they take this business. They carry these tiny hand-made wicker brooms and they’ll brush you with it to ward off evil spirits.

So throw a snowball at them, be a kid and do what kids do, and then you’ll realize they’re not playing around. Every year I’d do this and each time I’d get my ass beat by grown adults, respectable members of the community would chase me back to my house as I’d slam and lock the door and thinking I was safe was not considering they’d kick the door down or break a window, they’d do whatever it took to pin me down and whip me across the face over and over until they felt the evil spirit within me was vanquished.

Is that crazy or what?
 
No religion is completely free of theurgy and thaumaturgy.
 
maquiscat said:
Isn't that what most charity, religious and non religious, is?




Strawman much? WTH does religion have to do with whether or not we build high speed trains and other similar projects? Is there some religious group calling high speed trains immoral and the work of Satan?
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Yep...We call them Republicans.

WASHINGTON — Congressional Republicans this week are trying to drive another spike, or two, into the heart of California’s high-speed rail program.

Daring a presidential veto, GOP lawmakers are deploying a transportation funding bill for fiscal year 2015 to effectively block the federal Surface Transportation Board from issuing new permits for the California project.

Hammering home the point, House Republicans on Tuesday approved an amendment by Rep. Jeff Denham, R-Turlock, that blocks any money from the $52 billion bill from going to California high-speed rail.

Read more here: WASHINGTON: House backs bill seeking to thwart California high-speed rail | Local News | Modesto Bee
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calamity said:
Yep...We call them Republicans.
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Oh look, not one mention of a religious objection. Go ahead and keep making stuff up. After all it can only help your credibility.</sarcasm>
 
maquiscat said:
Oh look, not one mention of a religious objection. Go ahead and keep making stuff up. After all it can only help your credibility.</sarcasm>
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details

Bottom line is the Luddites are out to squash progress, and those who squash it the most are Religious folks.
 
calamity said:
I've encountered a few die hard religious followers who insist that their religion does not include a belief in magic. I basically argued that religion is a belief in magic along with cult-like adherence to various ritual and leadership worship. Where the line between religion and belief in magic lies is blurry and, in most cultures, is impossible to distinguish.

Of course, they argued that Christianity is not like Voodoo worship and the like. To which I chuckled and now started this thread here.

BTW: In Christ based religions, the magical beliefs are obvious to outsiders like me. Christ was conceived by magic; he lived a magical life: walking on water, creating food from thin air, raising people from the dead, making the blind see, etc.; he himself even rose from the dead, and the ultimate, Jesus magically transports his followers to heaven upon their deaths. All of that is a belief in magic.


So, is religion a belief in magic?
Click to expand...

I think that a better way to frame it would be to ask if religion is a belief in the supernatural, in which case the answer is categorically yes, if not by definition.
 
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