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Value systems of the United States

ttwtt78640 said:
Cultural differences matter too, e.g. uncontrolled immigration, street drug dealers/gangs running wild and out of wedlock childbirth.
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Actually, I'd say that France, Spain, and especially Italy might have a worse problem with illegals than we do, since they're just across the Med from North Africa. Hardly a month goes by where there's not a news story about a boat of illegals sinking and drowning several of them. And - for those out there who are afraid of Islam and the creep of Sharia law (and I don't think you're one of those who are afraid) - a lot (or perhaps most) of those illegals are Muslim.

Australia, for their part, has a real problem with Indonesian refugees, to the point where they were trying to set aside a small island just for them.

But I strongly agree with you that cultural differences do matter - and one of those cultural differences is America's insistence on individual rights and freedoms (and we on the Left are just as guilty for this view) such as "I have a right to buy any gun I want!" or "I have a right to expect government help for my addiction!" (like I said, we on the Left are at fault, too), whereas all other first-world democracies have the cultural attitude of "yes, you're a free individual, but we've also got to work together to make this nation prosper".

And that's what I think is leading to our decline as a society - as a nation we're rejecting the view that we have duties and obligations to our nation and society. And for the life of me, I don't see how we're going to be able to stop that decline. Don't get me wrong - we're still capable of great things and we will still accomplish great things - but so did Rome and England as they wound down from their times on top of the world.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
You left out a big one - the entitlement attitude. Since we are #1, and such a rich nation, then many have come to see it as "fairness" to kick back working a McJob and demand a "living wage", free college, free medical care and all sorts of subsidized things.
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A government that emphasizes dependence certainly doesn't help the situation, I can see eye to eye with conservatives on that one.
 
My favorite quote of all time from a president.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." -John Kennedy
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Um, unlike us, England had their empire for centuries, and they were able to do so because they ruled the seas. No one else could compete. We cannot compare our empire - if you want to call it that - to theirs. The two greatest empires in terms of size were England's...and that of Genghis Khan. I think the Khan's was bigger, but England's lasted much longer.
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Our sizee far extends that of what is actually ours, our sphere of influence, is what truly matters, land isn't important anymore.

Wars used to be all about gaining land. How many times do we war for gaining territory compared to back then?

I think we're misreading each other here.
 
Luftwaffe said:
Our sizee far extends that of what is actually ours, our sphere of influence, is what truly matters, land isn't important anymore.

Wars used to be all about gaining land. How many times do we war for gaining territory compared to back then?

I think we're misreading each other here.
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The Iraq war was over oil - see the Bush administration's cabinet meeting ten days after he took office the first time, and over half a year before 9/11. What was discussed? Oil fields. And then there were the (confidential) meetings between Cheney and Big Oil execs.

The first Iraq war was in response to what was a war over land.

Russia's Afghan war was a war over land. So was Russia's invasion of Georgia and their annexation of the Crimea.

Then there was the Falklands war. And the war in the Balkans during the 1990's. And then there's China's yearly attempts to pressure Taiwan to become part of China once more...and China's current attempts (which will probably succeed) to take the Spratly Islands (which is over oil, of course).

So...while there have been wars that were not over land - like our invasions of Afghanistan, Panama, and Grenada - most wars still are over the possession of land, and often over oil.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
The Iraq war was over oil - see the Bush administration's cabinet meeting ten days after he took office the first time, and over half a year before 9/11. What was discussed? Oil fields. And then there were the (confidential) meetings between Cheney and Big Oil execs.

The first Iraq war was in response to what was a war over land.

Russia's Afghan war was a war over land. So was Russia's invasion of Georgia and their annexation of the Crimea.

Then there was the Falklands war. And the war in the Balkans during the 1990's. And then there's China's yearly attempts to pressure Taiwan to become part of China once more...and China's current attempts (which will probably succeed) to take the Spratly Islands (which is over oil, of course).

So...while there have been wars that were not over land - like our invasions of Afghanistan, Panama, and Grenada - most wars still are over the possession of land, and often over oil.
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Want me to name the 100X more wars that took place before 1900 that were over land? And NOTHING else.

Wars over land are diminishing quickly, exerting dominance over another country (like we did in Iraq the second time) is fighting to keep our interests, which falls under influence not land.

The first Iraq war wasn't in response to land. Iraq tried keeping its sphere of influence (or what it thought was a sphere of influence) protected in the Middle East. Kuwait was raising its oil quota which created a massive drop in oil prices which ****ed over Iraq. Iraq then retaliated by invading Kuwait so as to repair its economy and destroy Kuwaiti oil wells which would cause a rise in oil prices and essentially save the Iraqi economy (or so they thought). Making Kuwait a province in Iraq was Hussein's way of saying "**** you" to the UN which had condemned his actions.
 
Luftwaffe said:
Want me to name the 100X more wars that took place before 1900 that were over land? And NOTHING else.

Wars over land are diminishing quickly, exerting dominance over another country (like we did in Iraq the second time) is fighting to keep our interests, which falls under influence not land.
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Like when we went to war with the Barbary pirates? That wasn't over land. There's been punitive wars throughout history, too - almost all of them very minor, of course.

But in the bigger picture, you're right that some wars these days have nothing to do with land and everything to do with influence (or access to resources). But don't make the mistake of thinking that the days of wars over land are over. One day the days of war over land will be over...when there are no more humans to fight them.

The first Iraq war wasn't in response to land. Iraq tried keeping its sphere of influence (or what it thought was a sphere of influence) protected in the Middle East. Kuwait was raising its oil quota which created a massive drop in oil prices which ****ed over Iraq. Iraq then retaliated by invading Kuwait so as to repair its economy and destroy Kuwaiti oil wells which would cause a rise in oil prices and essentially save the Iraqi economy (or so they thought). Making Kuwait a province in Iraq was Hussein's way of saying "**** you" to the UN which had condemned his actions.
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Ah. The first Iraq war wasn't over land, which was why Iraq renamed Kuwait "Province 19", huh? Yes, it was all about oil (and Kuwait's drilling sideways to the point that they were stealing Iraqi oil), but Iraq took over Kuwait...and that makes it about land (and access to the oil under that land).
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Like when we went to war with the Barbary pirates? That wasn't over land. There's been punitive wars throughout history, too - almost all of them very minor, of course.

But in the bigger picture, you're right that some wars these days have nothing to do with land and everything to do with influence (or access to resources). But don't make the mistake of thinking that the days of wars over land are over. One day the days of war over land will be over...when there are no more humans to fight them.



Ah. The first Iraq war wasn't over land, which was why Iraq renamed Kuwait "Province 19", huh? Yes, it was all about oil (and Kuwait's drilling sideways to the point that they were stealing Iraqi oil), but Iraq took over Kuwait...and that makes it about land (and access to the oil under that land).
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Your response to the second part of my quote shows that you didn't even read what I posted... Or of course it is just a classical case of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam.
 
Luftwaffe said:
Your response to the second part of my quote shows that you didn't even read what I posted... Or of course it is just a classical case of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam.
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Oh, I read it - and I pointed out that if Iraq's invasion wasn't about land, then they wouldn't have renamed it "Province 19" and planned to stay there PERMANENTLY.

If Iraq had planned to just destroy a bunch of stuff to drive up the oil and then leave Kuwait as an independent nation to rebuild itself after its destruction by Iraq, THEN you would have a point. But Iraq planned to stay...and so it was a war over land.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Oh, I read it - and I pointed out that if Iraq's invasion wasn't about land, then they wouldn't have renamed it "Province 19" and planned to stay there PERMANENTLY.

If Iraq had planned to just destroy a bunch of stuff to drive up the oil and then leave Kuwait as an independent nation to rebuild itself after its destruction by Iraq, THEN you would have a point. But Iraq planned to stay...and so it was a war over land.
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Already stated the reasoning behind it being named providence 19. The only thing that could possibly fuel your argument was that citizens of Iraq considered Kuwait part of Iraq, that's about it.
 
Luftwaffe said:
Already stated the reasoning behind it being named providence 19. The only thing that could possibly fuel your argument was that citizens of Iraq considered Kuwait part of Iraq, that's about it.
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Okay, spoon-feeding time: did Iraq or did Iraq not intend to keep Kuwait permanently? If they did, then it was by definition a war over land. Period, end of story.

And one more thing - it was NEVER a matter of what the "citizens of Iraq" wanted, because one person got 100% of the vote there: Saddam Hussein. What the citizenry wanted or did not want mattered not at all.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Okay, spoon-feeding time: did Iraq or did Iraq not intend to keep Kuwait permanently? If they did, then it was by definition a war over land. Period, end of story.

And one more thing - it was NEVER a matter of what the "citizens of Iraq" wanted, because one person got 100% of the vote there: Saddam Hussein. What the citizenry wanted or did not want mattered not at all.
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Saddam Hussein didn't invade Iraq to take it over, but to simply destroy its economy and save the economy of Iraq, once the U.N. condemned him and the coalitions began to form he made Kuwait a providence as a way of saying "**** you".

I don't wanna be spoon fed terrible tasting food.
 
Luftwaffe said:
Every time we look around in a poor neighborhood we see people with their underwear sticking out of their pants.

Every time we go into a rich neighborhood we see people who are stuck up like **** and have no respect for anything.

Even the middle class is being affected by this although to a lesser extent.

Why?

The best answer I was able to come up with is the idea that the values in which we trust our parents, the government, and our neighbors to give our children aren't being given. As Liberal as I am welfare and a dependent society certainly aggravates the situation, but that isn't what this thread is about.

How come we are so afraid to help discipline our children? Why are parents so negligent that when they see their kids dragging along with their shorts down to their ankles they do nothing? How come when a kid sneaks out at night to do whatever the hell he does and he comes back the parents might scold him and "ground" him but then two minutes later don't give a ****? Why? How come schools do nothing to help discipline the children, wheres the paddle. There are so many issues but at the end of the day society has become so protective and excluded that the children are never exposed to anything, they think the world is just them and their city, or them and their sagging shorts. No one even tries anymore to discipline their children.

When my dad was in Ecuador and he misbehaved and a neighbor saw, he would get beaten (which I disagree with) and then they would call his parents and then he goes home and gets beaten again (again I don't necessarily agree with this). Now I'm not trying to say that beating is the answer to disciplining children, but what I'm trying to get at is that the whole community should be involved to help discipline children and input values of respect, responsibility, and hard work. Even the schools would discipline the children and then call up the parents who again disciplined the children. What happened to everyone in the community working to create a better generation?

I walk through the streets of Bridgeport (Connecticut's armpit so to speak) sometimes and I see children on their bikes out alone when they're only 10 years old, hanging out with drunkards thinking they're cool. No values. Or when a teenager is spray-painting graffiti on property, no respect. Or when I speak to a minority (of which I partially come from, my dad being a minority himself who was discriminated against) as to why he/she is failing, or why they're giving up the fight to work hard and be a good citizen. And the response I get, "OH WELL!!! The white guy was bringing me and my father and grandfather down and now I can't do anything!". No Personal responsibility.

Or when I read magazines and I see articles talking about women in college who get raped, and the staggering numbers of rape in campus. But as I scan through the article not a single sentence ever says something about some (not all, I'm not trying to be mean. Only some women) women going to parties, getting drunk, acting crazy, and then getting raped. The guy should go to jail but the woman should also go and do some soul searching as to why she ever even got into those situations. But sometimes they don't, they just go to parties again and get drunk, no personal responsibility.

Everything traces back to the community being unable to instill the traditional great values of this nation to the children. Those values of hard work, respect, personal responsibility. What happened? Welfare is certainly an issue, but there is no way that something like that can cause this absolute degradation of values within the American society. What. Happened. How did parents, schools, neighbors, go from teaching their children values or at least TRYING to teach their kids values, to not even trying at all. To not caring when the kid tries a cigarette at 13 years old. To not caring when their kid comes back home from a friends house at midnight when they're only 13-14. To not caring when their kid walks around with his ass sticking out to the public because he doesn't have a belt. Something went wrong, maybe we can discuss how this happened.

Even on this forum during the castle doctrine debate I saw with my very own eyes someone say "yeah well when I was his age I was stupid too smiley face", LIKE IT DIDN'T MATTER! WHY! We laugh now, but later on we see what the effects are on society, and we don't laugh anymore.

It's not a social class thing, it's not (entirely) a welfare thing, so what is it? I can't just be pessimistic, because I SEE these things, everywhere. In every city. I just want to know why.
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We live in a society where everything is commodified, and where profit is put above every moral value, hell even the Health of the planet itself .... is it any suprise that this attitude affects individuals and Young People?

Capitalism is basically a system where greed is good, selfishness is Natural, personal profit is the ONLY measure of value, and now you're shocked.

This is a result of the economic system which permiates every aspect of society, even sex and relationships are being commodified for profit.
 
RGacky3 said:
We live in a society where everything is commodified, and where profit is put above every moral value, hell even the Health of the planet itself .... is it any suprise that this attitude affects individuals and Young People?

Capitalism is basically a system where greed is good, selfishness is Natural, personal profit is the ONLY measure of value, and now you're shocked.

This is a result of the economic system which permiates every aspect of society, even sex and relationships are being commodified for profit.
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I'm not shocked, and showing your ass to the world, acting disrespectful, aspiring to be a hobo, etc. (on a massive scale) has nothing to do with capitalism.
 
Luftwaffe said:
I'm not shocked, and showing your ass to the world, acting disrespectful, aspiring to be a hobo, etc. (on a massive scale) has nothing to do with capitalism.
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I think it does, whether were conscious of it or not we've replaced the Jesus sermon on the Mount ethic, With the Ayn Rand "I gotta get mine" ethic.

I think it's totally related to Capitalism, a society where everything is a commodity and everything is for profit, is going to result in a selfish, self centered generation.
 
RGacky3 said:
I think it does, whether were conscious of it or not we've replaced the Jesus sermon on the Mount ethic, With the Ayn Rand "I gotta get mine" ethic.

I think it's totally related to Capitalism, a society where everything is a commodity and everything is for profit, is going to result in a selfish, self centered generation.
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The relation between this new attitude and capitalism is almost non-existent. The issue is more because of the parents and grandparents.
 
Luftwaffe said:
The relation between this new attitude and capitalism is almost non-existent. The issue is more because of the parents and grandparents.
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That simply is not the case, parents and grandparents have always existed, and InFact have been MORE involved in their childrens lives as parenting became more important (not sending of kids to boarding Schools), the problem is the values, what shapes the values? In mordern society it's Capitalism.
 
WCH said:
Most of you won't like this but, we are seeing the effect of God being removed from our lives.

Religion teaches and reenforces all those missing traits missing from today's youth.
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how is God being removed from your life.
 
Sababa said:
how is God being removed from your life.
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Scientific naturalism is the driving force in the worldview of our culture in which empirical data determines what is true/false. Therefore, philosophically God has been thrown into the postmodern category of values, feelings, or personal ideas. In one sense this is a good thing since we have freedoms of personal expression, but in another sense we see how it has created a damaging dichotomy in which scientific truth really cannot answer many questions of reality in human life.
 
WCH said:
Most of you won't like this but, we are seeing the effect of God being removed from our lives.

Religion teaches and reenforces all those missing traits missing from today's youth.
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There certainly seems to be more crappy parenting now days but it's not from the effect of God being removed from our lives. It's because so many families need two breadwinners to make ends meet, which means parenting is secondary to survival. It's a very, very bad trend that is going to reverse as the parenting skills are lost and not passed down. Honestly the lack of time is IMO why so many organized religions are on a downward trend.
 
Winchester said:
There certainly seems to be more crappy parenting now days but it's not from the effect of God being removed from our lives. It's because so many families need two breadwinners to make ends meet, which means parenting is secondary to survival. It's a very, very bad trend that is going to reverse as the parenting skills are lost and not passed down. Honestly the lack of time is IMO why so many organized religions are on a downward trend.
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Parent don't need much time to incorporate a little religion into their day to day lives. When I was growing up the rich and poor took the time for it.

It was also backed up with serious discipline.
 
WCH said:
Parent don't need much time to incorporate a little religion into their day to day lives. When I was growing up the rich and poor took the time for it.

It was also backed up with serious discipline.
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They don't need much time to incorporate a little parenting into their daily lives either. It's not that hard of a job to do properly. But they don't, they're tired, exhausted and some of them weren't taught good parenting skills while growing up. Like so many other life skills in our society, parenting is becoming a lost art.

I'm not saying that religion is unhelpful with parenting just not a necessity.
 
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Winchester said:
They don't need much time to incorporate a little parenting into their daily lives either. It's not that hard of a job to do properly. But they don't they're tired, exhausted and some of them weren't taught good parenting skills while growing up. Like so many other life skills in our society they are being lost.
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You have that right.

The FedGov will step in to do it for them. Just watch.
 
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