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Why The Idea Of A "Savior" Is Anythuing But

Sababa said:
ACtually no, I showed you how Christians have mistranslated text to suit their needs. That is deceptive not opinion.
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Nope not at all. There is no mistranslation. There are certain interpritation issues but no there are no mistranslations.


Yes it is....you are telling the people who wrote the book what the book means.
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Yep and during the time of Christ they were looking for the conquering messiah not the suffering Messiah. it was a misinterpritation on their part. of course 500 years of occupation and war will do that.


The phrase is suffering servant and it is clear it is about Israel as a whole.
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no as the verse above says Him as a singular person not refering to a group of people. That person would be Christ.
Messianic Prophecies


No well Jesus didn't fulfill scripture that Jesus himself would have known.
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Yes he did he fulfilled all that the law required. There is nothing in the law that says He would consquer the Romans. He did set the Jewish people free just not in the way that they thought. He freed them not only from sin and death, but from the law as well. That is why Paul went on to declare everything clean.


How, seriously, quote Hebrew scripture that you say required this and was fulfilled.
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Please see the link above it links scripture with the fulfillment.


And what did his followers do?
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Continue the great commission.

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”



No there are a lot of bad translations, I already linked to places that showed you some.
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Nope as they have done a great deal to fix many of the translation errors over the years.


I am an expert in the Hebrew Bible and lecture on what it means all the time. I have forgotten more about it than you will ever know. So tell me again what I know and don't know?
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On the internet everyone is an expert on something.
 
Sababa said:
Isaiah 53 i not about Jesus and Jesus would have taught that.
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Not true. Even the New Testament talks about Jesus in context with Isaiah 53.

Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus Christ because New Testament writers freely relate the prophet's words to Christ. John 12:37-38 and Romans 10:16 use Isaiah 53:1 to state Israel's rejection of Christ despite His many miracles in their presence. Matthew 8:16-17 describes Christ's healing ministry, using Isaiah 53:4 to show Jesus assuming our infirmities and carrying our sorrows. Luke 22:28 reminds us that Jesus was familiar with suffering, as Isaiah 53:3 noted. Yet, as John 14:27; 15:11; and 16:33 stress, Jesus turned all His adversity into victory by submitting it to God's will. He knew the cost imposed by ministering (Luke 8:46), but never whimpered or complained about how tough life had been, or if He had known it would cost so much, He wouldn't have come. Instead, at the end, as He had throughout His life, He bequeathed His JOY and PEACE to them and us.

1 Corinthians 1:23 expresses the Jewish viewpoint stated in Isaiah 53:4, ". . .yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted." Indeed, following God's clear condemnation of the crucified (Deuteronomy 21:22-23), most Jews saw Christ's death as God's punishment for leading people astray (John 7:12-13).

Luke 19:10, Mark 10:45, 1 Peter 1:18-19, and Revelation 5:6, 9 fulfill Isaiah 53:5-6: "He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
- See more at: Isaiah 53

More in the link below.

Isaiah 53
 
ludin said:
Nope not at all. There is no mistranslation. There are certain interpritation issues but no there are no mistranslations.




Yep and during the time of Christ they were looking for the conquering messiah not the suffering Messiah. it was a misinterpritation on their part. of course 500 years of occupation and war will do that.




no as the verse above says Him as a singular person not refering to a group of people. That person would be Christ.
Messianic Prophecies




Yes he did he fulfilled all that the law required. There is nothing in the law that says He would consquer the Romans. He did set the Jewish people free just not in the way that they thought. He freed them not only from sin and death, but from the law as well. That is why Paul went on to declare everything clean.



Please see the link above it links scripture with the fulfillment.



Continue the great commission.

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”




Nope as they have done a great deal to fix many of the translation errors over the years.




On the internet everyone is an expert on something.
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You are now simply lying.....

In accurate translations of Jewish Scriptures, the word “Moshiach” is never translated as “Messiah,” but as “anointed.” Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by God to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah. This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria before being acknowledged as the Messiah.

These specific criteria are as follows:
1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy. 17:15, Numbers 24:17)
2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a
direct male descendent of King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalms 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon.
(I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)
4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)
5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in chapter 37:24-28 of the book of Ezekiel:
“and My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant…and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.” (Ezekiel 37:24-28)

Emphasis: If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah!

- See more at: Jews For Judaism | Was Jesus the Messiah?
 
ludin said:
you saying so doesn't make it so. There is no reason that he would have taught them something they already knew.

isaiah 53 does not refer to many people but 1 person.
Does Isaiah 53 predict that Jesus would be the Messiah?|The Historical and Literary Context Isaiah 53 | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
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Just because people who didn't write this say it doesn't make it right.

Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus, but you don't have to take my word for it:

http://www.jewishisaiah53.com/Isaiah 53 - The Suffering Servant.pdf
 
Logicman said:
Not true. Even the New Testament talks about Jesus in context with Isaiah 53.

Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus Christ because New Testament writers freely relate the prophet's words to Christ. John 12:37-38 and Romans 10:16 use Isaiah 53:1 to state Israel's rejection of Christ despite His many miracles in their presence. Matthew 8:16-17 describes Christ's healing ministry, using Isaiah 53:4 to show Jesus assuming our infirmities and carrying our sorrows. Luke 22:28 reminds us that Jesus was familiar with suffering, as Isaiah 53:3 noted. Yet, as John 14:27; 15:11; and 16:33 stress, Jesus turned all His adversity into victory by submitting it to God's will. He knew the cost imposed by ministering (Luke 8:46), but never whimpered or complained about how tough life had been, or if He had known it would cost so much, He wouldn't have come. Instead, at the end, as He had throughout His life, He bequeathed His JOY and PEACE to them and us.

1 Corinthians 1:23 expresses the Jewish viewpoint stated in Isaiah 53:4, ". . .yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted." Indeed, following God's clear condemnation of the crucified (Deuteronomy 21:22-23), most Jews saw Christ's death as God's punishment for leading people astray (John 7:12-13).

Luke 19:10, Mark 10:45, 1 Peter 1:18-19, and Revelation 5:6, 9 fulfill Isaiah 53:5-6: "He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
- See more at: Isaiah 53

More in the link below.

Isaiah 53
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More nonsense.....
Freaking Christian theologians disagree with you

http://www.jewishisaiah53.com/Isaiah 53 - The Suffering Servant.pdf
 
Sababa said:
More nonsense.....
Freaking Christian theologians disagree with you

http://www.jewishisaiah53.com/Isaiah 53 - The Suffering Servant.pdf
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Whoever wrote that link doesn't know what they're talking about. Example:

"There never was such a concept of this kind of Messiah. And that is why his disciples and are a bit surprised
to hear this. Nobody ever understood Isaiah 53 to be predicting the death of the Messiah."

What a big, fat lie that is.

The following link shows numerous quotes from ancient Jewish rabbis confirming Isaiah 53 is speaking about the Messiah:

Isaiah 53 Rabbinical Commentary

Your link also says Isaiah 53 is about Israel (about the Jewish people). That's nonsense too.

Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah

Why Israel Cannot be the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 53

The rest of the objections in the link are addressed and refuted in this scholarly work by Jewish Messianic scholar Michael L. Brown

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Messianic Prophecy Objections, Vol. 3: Michael L. Brown: 9780801064234: Amazon.com: Books

Finally, here's why Israel missed it's Messiah (Jesus):

Why Israel Missed its Messiah « The Righter Report
 
Logicman said:
Whoever wrote that link doesn't know what they're talking about. Example:

"There never was such a concept of this kind of Messiah. And that is why his disciples and are a bit surprised
to hear this. Nobody ever understood Isaiah 53 to be predicting the death of the Messiah."

What a big, fat lie that is.

The following link shows numerous quotes from ancient Jewish rabbis confirming Isaiah 53 is speaking about the Messiah:

Isaiah 53 Rabbinical Commentary

Your link also says Isaiah 53 is about Israel (about the Jewish people). That's nonsense too.

Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah

Why Israel Cannot be the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 53

The rest of the objections in the link are addressed and refuted in this scholarly work by Jewish Messianic scholar Michael L. Brown

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Messianic Prophecy Objections, Vol. 3: Michael L. Brown: 9780801064234: Amazon.com: Books

Finally, here's why Israel missed it's Messiah (Jesus):

Why Israel Missed its Messiah « The Righter Report
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You link to post-Biblical commentary to discuss what 1 century Judaism says. You just don't understand the theology.

Linking to Chaim.org is just stupid as what they write is not Jewish.

The Suffering Servant was Israel and not Jesus....that is a fact.
 
Sababa said:
The Suffering Servant was Israel and not Jesus....that is a fact.
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LOL! You didn't bother to read the refutation of that in the link I provided:

Why Israel Cannot be the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53:

1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

2. The prophet said: "It pleased the LORD to bruise him." Has the awful treatment of the Jewish people (so contrary, by the way, to the teaching of Jesus to love everyone) really been God's pleasure, as is said of the suffering of the servant in Isaiah 53:10 ? If, as some rabbis contend, Isaiah 53 refers to the holocaust, can we really say of Israel's suffering during that horrible period, "It pleased the LORD to bruise him?" Yet it makes perfect sense to say that God was pleased to have Messiah suffer and die as our sin offering to provide us forgiveness and atonement.

3. The person mentioned in this passage suffers silently and willingly. Yet all people, even Israelites, complain when they suffer! Brave Jewish men and women fought in resistance movements against Hitler. Remember the Vilna Ghetto Uprising? Remember the Jewish men who fought on the side of the allies? Can we really say Jewish suffering during the holocaust and during the preceding centuries was done silently and willingly?

4. The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering." See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they might be forgiven. Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world? Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

5. It is the prophet who is speaking in this passage. He says: "who has believed our message." The term "message" usually refers to the prophetic message, as it does in Jeremiah 49:14. Also, when we understand the Hebrew parallelism of verse 1, we see "Who has believed our message" as parallel to "to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed." The "arm of the Lord" refers to God's powerful act of salvation. So the message of the speaker is the message of a prophet declaring what God has done to save his people.

6. The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?

7. The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of Israel have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.

More in the link:

Why Israel Cannot be the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 53
 
tecoyah said:
It seems to me at least, that as religion begins to fade in it's influence over humankind...we are slowly becoming more ethical and humane to each other. One can only hope this continues and the species mentally evolves enough to stop killing itself.
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Here is the kind of religion we both likely agree would be beneficial to fade in influence: (these are typical remarks made by contemporary "religious leaders" when Joseph and his brother Hyrum, whose name means "my brother is exalted" in Hebrew, were killed by a mob with their faces painted black):

An exultant Alexander Campbell, whose congregations had been "raided" by Mormon missionaries and who had been vilifying Joseph since his New York days, boldly announced in his Millennial Harbinger that the murder was an act of God:
"The money digger, the juggler, and the founder of the Golden Bible delusion, has been hurried away in the midst of his madness to his final account. 'He died not as a righteous man dieth.' The hand of the Lord was heavy upon him. An outlaw himself, God cut him off by outlaws. . . . It was the outrages of the Mormons that brought upon the head of their leader the arm of justice. . . . Religion or religious opinions had nothing to do with it. It was neither more nor less than the assassination of one whose career was in open rebellion against God and man."

Reverend William G. Brownlow of the Jonesborough Whig scorned the lamentations being printed by some papers: "Some of the public Journals of the country, we are sorry to see, regret the death of that blasphemous wretch Joe Smith, the Mormon Prophet. Our deliberate judgement is, that he ought to have been dead ten years ago, and that those who at length have deprived him of his life, have done the cause of God, and of the country, good service." "Smith was killed, as he should have been. THREE CHEERS to the brave company who shot him to pieces!"


All this hate from religious leaders for a guy that taught and lived precepts like this:

“Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God.”-Joseph Smith

"We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."-Joseph Smith, 13th article of faith.

This is the type of man that they hated and persecuted:
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-37?lang=eng

The Savior said, . . . "Blessed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake; rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so persecuted they the Prophets which were before you."
 
Sababa said:
You are now simply lying.....
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Typical comment when someone can't backup their argument. no one is lieing here.

In accurate translations of Jewish Scriptures, the word “Moshiach” is never translated as “Messiah,” but as “anointed.” Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by God to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah.
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As i stated and have backed up that person was Christ. He was the one sent and anointed by God to free the Jewish people. Just not in the way they thought. They were looking for and still are looking for the eartly kingdom. Christ wasn't setting up and earthly kingdom but a heavenly one. This is the thing that they missed in scripture and the old prophecies.

This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria before being acknowledged as the Messiah.
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as i pointd out in the link i posted he fulfilled everything that was required of him. The messiah was here and gone and will come again to establish His earthly kingdom, but not until this one is gone.

These specific criteria are as follows:
1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy. 17:15, Numbers 24:17)
2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a
direct male descendent of King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalms 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon.
(I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)
4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)
5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in chapter 37:24-28 of the book of Ezekiel:
“and My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant…and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.” (Ezekiel 37:24-28)
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Read the link i posted Christ already accomplished the majority of those things while he was here and the rest he will cover when He returns. The link i posted even backs them up with scripture ignoring evidence does not make it go away.
Christ's kingdom will be establish on the new earth and new heaven.

1. He was Jewish
2. He was of the tribe of Judah and was of the line of David.
3. People have been returning to israel for years now
4. He did rebuid the temple in 3 days. He rose again from the dead and began rebuilding the temple. Peter and the disciples were the foundation of that new temple.
5. he will do that when he returns.
6. He will do that when he returns for every knee shall bow and all tongues will confess that he is king of kings and lord of lords.

http://www.gotquestions.org/suffering-servant-Isaiah-53.html

Emphasis: If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah!
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Good thing that Christ did accomplish all of it and will Fulfill the rest when he comes back.
 
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Sababa said:
Just because people who didn't write this say it doesn't make it right.

Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus, but you don't have to take my word for it:

http://www.jewishisaiah53.com/Isaiah 53 - The Suffering Servant.pdf
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that seems to be valid in everything that you right.

i don't take your word for it because i just posted you a link that says otherwise. This is backed up by almost every other theological society out there.
Isaiah 53 does not refer to a group of people but to a single individual.

Yep i know it is hard for the jews to accept Christ the fact is that he was the one and they missed him, but not all of them. there was a good segment of the population that did believe and did know who He was and acknowledged that.
 
Sababa said:
You link to post-Biblical commentary to discuss what 1 century Judaism says. You just don't understand the theology.

Linking to Chaim.org is just stupid as what they write is not Jewish.

The Suffering Servant was Israel and not Jesus....that is a fact.
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repeating the same thing over again doesn't make it anymore true than it was before. we have both supplied you ample evidence that shows that it is not Israel

Who has believed what he has heard from us?[a]
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

This is the prophet speaking in this verse he is refering to Israel and is wanting to know if they are hearing the words of God and the prophets.

For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him

This does not inact the plural form of the word. so Isaiah is specifically talking about a single person not a group of people.

He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows,[c] and acquainted with[d] grief;[e]
and as one from whom men hide their faces[f]
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Again refering to a single person. Christ was dispised almost everywhere he went.

i could go one but the rest of the chapter refers to a single individual not a group of people.

All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

again singular verbage is used. he did not lay on israel the iniquity of everyone. that would be absurd.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.

this was the trial of Christ for he spoke no words accept to acknowledge certain things.
he made no defense of himself before the high priest or the Romans.

yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors

this defines what Christ is doing now. this does not describe the nation of Israel.
 
The idea that we need to be "saved" from our own nature is a very detrimental one. It gives us an excuse for our failures and tells us to expect to fail. We're all lowly sinners so we can never aspire to be anything better. That philosophy makes people easier to control since the supposed cure is submission to an authority, and it stifles us as a culture and a species.
 
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