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Religion or Cult?

Logicman said:
I don't know where you come up with these arguments, as if I condone murder or deny God's grace. Do you have something constructive to argue?
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You say that faith alone is sufficient for salvation. Is a man who is heinously immoral (a serial murderer for instance), but who has faith, justified before God?
 
rjay said:
Where do you draw the line between a Religion and a Cult?

The bottom line for me is this: Any religion that requires you to turn your back on a family member, because they have left the religion, is a cult.

The concept of 'shunning' is a real cult indicator, in my opinion.
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don't know if shunning makes a religion a cult just makes it a religion that dose something wrong
 
Paleocon said:
So the "work" of repentance is required for salvation?
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Why would you think that?

It comes from the Holy Spirit who convicts people of their sins.

Have you read the Bible?
 
Logicman said:
Why would you think that?

It comes from the Holy Spirit who convicts people of their sins.

Have you read the Bible?
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You're shifting the goalposts again. I'm not denying that God provides the grace for every good human action. Now please answer the question.
 
86 Bible Verses about Faith Without Works


James 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

James 2:14-26 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.


James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
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Dittohead not! said:
86 Bible Verses about Faith Without Works
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It is not truly grace if you have to earn salvation through works. If you are displaying works expecting to get something in return, it has no value. The elder son in Luke 15 did everything right but for the wrong reasons. He did the right things because he wanted what the father had rather than the father. Works is an outer display of faith.

In all honesty, that verse has so much meaning but it is a faith/life/marriage changer.
If you do good things for God or other people expecting anything in return, you are doing them for the wrong reason and it is has no value in heaven or on earth. We do good things because that should be our heart. Grace is not grace if something is expected.
 
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rjay said:
Where do you draw the line between a Religion and a Cult?

The bottom line for me is this: Any religion that requires you to turn your back on a family member, because they have left the religion, is a cult.

The concept of 'shunning' is a real cult indicator, in my opinion.
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I agree that should never be an issue.
 
Logicman said:
I think the Bible, especially the NT, is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
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Dittohead not! said:
I think that religions as diverse as Mormonism and Catholicism would disagree with that position.
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As do several passages in the Bible itself.

Just to give a few…

  • James 1:22-26
  • James 2:14-20,24-26

    (I don't know if this is true, but I heard somewhere that Martin Luther wanted to remove the book of James from the Bible, because he could not reconcile it with his “Sola Fide” dogma.)

  • Matthew 25:34-46
 
Bob Blaylock said:
As do several passages in the Bible itself.

Just to give a few…

  • James 1:22-26
  • James 2:14-20,24-26

    (I don't know if this is true, but I heard somewhere that Martin Luther wanted to remove the book of James from the Bible, because he could not reconcile it with his “Sola Fide” dogma.)

  • Matthew 25:34-46
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Hi Bob -

My link in post # 53 addresses the works issue. Basically, works of a Godly nature are the result of one's salvation and the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit, not the cause of one's salvation. Here's the link to that post / article.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/188021-religion-cult-6.html#post1063018578

There's also one place in the Bible that puts into perspective the relationship between salvation, works, and rewards. That's 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Part of that says that if one's works are destroyed in God's fire (like a jeweler's fire to determine if a diamond is real) then one is still saved ("as one escaping through the flames").
 
The Whole faith vrs Works thing is really almost not really an issue, since from a human perspective Works would tell you something about a persons relationship With christ. Since the spirit leads to Works, it's really a "did the chicken or egg come first" issue.
 
rjay said:
Where do you draw the line between a Religion and a Cult?

The bottom line for me is this: Any religion that requires you to turn your back on a family member, because they have left the religion, is a cult.

The concept of 'shunning' is a real cult indicator, in my opinion.
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Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

Matthew 12:48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
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I guess there are millions of cultists out there.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Cult Hotline and Clinic
"We have compiled the following comparative list to address this question, though there is no definitive answer.

Differences between a destructive cult and a religion

▬CULT, CULTIC GROUP▬

  1. Deceit in recruitment
  2. Totalitarian
  3. Destroys that family unit
  4. Isolates its members
  5. Keeps non-believers out
  6. Limits development of individual
  7. Exploits and manipulates its members with mind control techniques
  8. Commitment is encouraged during recruitment process
  9. Criticism is met with threats of legal action
  10. Leader and follower consider leader to be above reproach
  11. Questioning the leader, or basic tenets, is not allowed

▬RELIGION▬

  • Information offered up front
  • Allows freedom of thought and members have a say
  • Promotes the family unit
  • Works within society
  • Open to general community
  • Interested in promoting potential
  • While there are guidelines members are not systematically controlled
  • Thought before commitment is encouraged as part of conversion
  • People are free to speak out against the tenets of a religion
  • Clergy are expected to be responsible for their words and actions
  • Critical thinking is allowed and sometimes even encouraged"

If you go by this comparison then many so called religions need to be categorized as cults.
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I think this is a fantastic delineation. I don't believe any "religion" fully lives up to the definition so defined, but this is nevertheless a standard by which to judge.
 
rjay said:
Where do you draw the line between a Religion and a Cult?

The bottom line for me is this: Any religion that requires you to turn your back on a family member, because they have left the religion, is a cult.

The concept of 'shunning' is a real cult indicator, in my opinion.
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A cult is a group that worships something that is considered evil. IE: Devil worship. A cult is meant to be the opposite of religion. If religion is suppose to be good then the opposite would be cults. At least imo. :shrug:
 
There's other indicators, but if your 'religion' involves faith healing, snake handling or talking in tongues, you're in a cult.
 
Grand Mal said:
There's other indicators, but if your 'religion' involves faith healing, snake handling or talking in tongues, you're in a cult.
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Why would a denomination that believes in or practices faith healing be considered a cult? Or talking in tongues? They're both biblically-based.
 
Logicman said:
Why would a denomination that believes in or practices faith healing be considered a cult? Or talking in tongues? They're both biblically-based.
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I am not going to answer the question you directed at another. I will say this though. being bilblcally based is not a differentiator between religions and cults. Some religions are not biblically based, some cults are.
 
rjay said:
Where do you draw the line between a Religion and a Cult?

The bottom line for me is this: Any religion that requires you to turn your back on a family member, because they have left the religion, is a cult.

The concept of 'shunning' is a real cult indicator, in my opinion.
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I'd say that's an indicator of a more dangerous cult but not all cults are like that. Many sociologists try to stay away from that word because of it's negative connotations and instead call them "new religious movements".

I would go with age as the primary indicator of what a cult is and after that it depends on what type of cult you're speaking of, if it's a potentially dangerous type like what comes to most peoples minds when they think of cults then typically many have a dynamic leader, a strict adherence to that leader where questions or doubt is not encouraged, an inability to leave the cult without being completely cut off, members pull away from family that are outside of the cult, the group has an us vs them mentality with the rest of the world, then there's the time and monetary support that's typically expected from the members.
 
rjay said:
I am not going to answer the question you directed at another. I will say this though. being bilblcally based is not a differentiator between religions and cults. Some religions are not biblically based, some cults are.
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I'm just curious. Can you give me an example of a cult that's Biblically based?
 
Logicman said:
I'm just curious. Can you give me an example of a cult that's Biblically based?
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The Children of God were founded by David “Moses” Berg in 1968. After his death in 1994, the Children of God changed their name to “Family International”. David Berg was born in California in 1919 and came up in a Disciples of Christ sect. Berg served as a minister in Arizona and in Miami, Florida, before moving his family to Texas. From seclusion, David Berg created a widespread cult following through his writings. Though the Children of God espouses Christian beliefs, many churches would view his beliefs as heretical.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the cult founded by current convict Warren Jeffs. Jeffs’s story caused a media circus when it first came to national attention in 2006, after he reached the FBI Ten Most Wanted List. The Fundamentalist Church is one of many breakoff sects from the main Mormon church, due to their excommunication for continuing to practice polygamy.

The Unification Church When he was excommunicated from the Presbyterian Church in 1954, Sun Myung Moon founded the Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity. Reverend Moon told his flock that only he could choose their marriage partners (after 7 years in the church), and he became infamous for his mass marriage ceremonies.

I would include Jehovah Witnesses, though some might argue. They shun and they use brain-washing techniques.
 
MaggieD said:
At first, I agreed with your concept of a cult indicator. But then I remembered that the Amish practice shunning. I don't consider them a cult. I suppose one reason I don't view them as a cult is that they have stood the test of time.

I did some Googling and found that Jehovah's Witnesses practice shunning as well. As do Mormons. Mennonites same thing. Some ultra-Orthodox Jews actually hold funerals for those who marry outside their religion. Catholics excommunicate. (Not the same thing, but I think it was more or less meant to be. In 1983, their doctrine was changed and the shunning aspect of excommunication is no longer expected.)

So, then what's a cult? Well, I'm thinking that a cult is a religious sect that believes its leader speaks for God . . . one whose motives are to collect money from its followers to enrich their leader (sound like the Catholic church? Ha!) . . . and where the practice of their religion is ultimately harmful to its congregants. A perfect example would be the Peoples Temple Agricultural Project. (Jonestown)
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The Catholic Church doesn't require any money from it's adherents and it doesn't "shun" those who have left the faith do you have anything to prove that? Since you did say that before 1983 it was in practice correct? I heard that communication in sacred things was not encouraged then but that's hardly shunning.
 
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