Family communism

winston53660 said:

Nevermind:roll:

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lol no harm done!
:cheers:

Manny said:

lol no harm done!
:cheers:

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Actually there is harm done. You didn't know what a Kibbutz is in the first place and then make false accusations

winston53660 said:

Actually there is harm done. You didn't know what a Kibbutz is in the first place and then make false accusations

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I readthe link you provided, winston. I made no false accusations. If you have something to say, out with it.

Manny said:

The fundamental purpose of family is completely the opposite of a commune.

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You know, you could be right.

Matthew 10:36 AND A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

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Canell said:

Howdy

I don't know how many of us are aware of the fact that the family is in fact a commune.
Shared expenses, shared income, internal rules, shared domestic appliances, mutual help, etc.
It's may the oldest commune the world has ever known.

Objections?

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Hmmm....that explains how I adopted Russian kids and my family fell apart like the Soviet Union.

Canell said:

Howdy

I don't know how many of us are aware of the fact that the family is in fact a commune.
Shared expenses, shared income, internal rules, shared domestic appliances, mutual help, etc.
It's may the oldest commune the world has ever known.

Objections?

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sure. communism works well at the family or tribal level, because everyone is immediately accountable for his or her actions and contributions.

Canell said:

Howdy

I don't know how many of us are aware of the fact that the family is in fact a commune.
Shared expenses, shared income, internal rules, shared domestic appliances, mutual help, etc.
It's may the oldest commune the world has ever known.

Objections?

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So you're trying to say that everyone in the world is a communist?

American said:

So you're trying to say that everyone in the world is a communist?

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Well, I don't know every culture and family structure in this world. For example, women in Islam countries might not qualify for the commie status.

Canell said:

Well, I don't know every culture and family structure in this world. For example, women in Islam countries might not qualify for the commie status.

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All families commune.

Manny said:

I readthe link you provided, winston. I made no false accusations. If you have something to say, out with it.

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Your statement implied all or at least most of them were pro-Stalin. Considering two communities felt that way for a couple of decades out of 270 communities and over a century I'd say that's a false accusation. May as well call Christian America a communist hotbed. I'm sure you could dig up one or two people in a thousand that are communist. :roll:

MoSurveyor said:

Your statement implied all or at least most of them were pro-Stalin. Considering two communities felt that way for a couple of decades out of 270 communities and over a century I'd say that's a false accusation. May as well call Christian America a communist hotbed. I'm sure you could dig up one or two people in a thousand that are communist. :roll:

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I didn't imply anything about numbers. It says they were disliked by the public for their support of Stalin.
It also says the kids where scared at night, and wet their beds.

If you'd like to raise a family of communist bed-wetters go right ahead.

In practice it's the same but the reasons for it are different. Families have a lot of instinctual human natures built into them, like providing for offspring. Providing for local community has a similar flavor because mutual human connection leads to heightened mutual survival, but it has more to do with securing resources.

On a societal level, communism is an institution with proscribed laws and reforms. I don't believe they are rooted in human instinct per se. Families are communist by nature because if you don't provide for your family then your offspring die. It's less about ideology and more about animal survivalism.

Communism becomes weaker the more massive and institutionalized it becomes, because it becomes divorced from any particular locus of survival and is focused more on rule of law and philosophy.

Canell said:

Howdy

I don't know how many of us are aware of the fact that the family is in fact a commune.
Shared expenses, shared income, internal rules, shared domestic appliances, mutual help, etc.
It's may the oldest commune the world has ever known.

Objections?

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If many conservatives had their way it would be a feudal dictatorship like in the "good old days."

Manny said:

The purpose of family is to raise children so they can grow up and eventually leave the family, so they can have their own independent lives. They can then choose to do what they wish, live wherever they wish, get their own place, make their own income, raise a family of their own. Or, not raise a family. At that point the original parental family gets smaller, and mom and dad live out the rest of their lives on their own. So, NO, the family is not the same as a commune, which needs to retain the membership in order to perpetuate itself. The fundamental purpose of family is completely the opposite of a commune.

To understand better what a commune is, take a look at hippy communes. Hippies, the ultimate evolution of leftist liberals.

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In the old days children often stayed to work on the same farm or took over the family business. In the really old days of hunter gatherers, tribes would travel together and share resources, only occasionally leaving the tribe when it got too big.

Manny said:

No I haven't heard of a Kibbutz. Seems it's a militant Jewish commune. That article says they revered Joseph Stalin, and it failed. No surprise there. Hippy communes were a failure as well.

"...Not sure what point you're trying to make about it though.

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Kibbutz members were not classic Marxists though their system partially resembled Communism. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels both shared a disdain for conventional formulations of the nation-state and Leninists were hostile to Zionism. Nevertheless, in the late 1930s, two kibbutz leaders, Tabenkin and Yaari, initially attracted to anarchist ideas,[19] pushed their movements leftward to reverence of Stalin's dictatorship. Soon Stalin became hostile to Israel as it served Soviet diplomatic and military interests in the Arab world. This caused major crises and mass exit in both Kibbutz Meuchad and Kibbutz Artzi kibbutzim, especially after the 1953 Doctors' Plot in Moscow and the Prague showcase Trials. Kibbutzim were run as collective enterprises within a free market system. Kibbutzim also practised active democracy, with elections held for kibbutz functions and full participation in national elections..."

Hard Truth said:

Kibbutz members were not classic Marxists though their system partially resembled Communism. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels both shared a disdain for conventional formulations of the nation-state and Leninists were hostile to Zionism.

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"Nevertheless, in the late 1930s, two kibbutz leaders, Tabenkin and Yaari, initially attracted to anarchist ideas,[19] pushed their movements leftward to reverence of Stalin's dictatorship. Soon Stalin became hostile to Israel as it served Soviet diplomatic and military interests in the Arab world. This caused major crises and mass exit in both Kibbutz Meuchad and Kibbutz Artzi kibbutzim"



...
To be clear, not just two guys.

Manny said:

I didn't imply anything about numbers. It says they were disliked by the public for their support of Stalin.
It also says the kids where scared at night, and wet their beds.

If you'd like to raise a family of communist bed-wetters go right ahead.

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And you continue with the false claims. :lamo


998/1000 of those "communists" you're talking about had nothing to do with Stalin. Keep painting that false image - the more imaginative it gets, the dumber you look.

Again I don't make claims about numbers. I've only read the link the user provided, and commented on what it says. If it was a very small group relative to the whole, why did they take criticism for it? There must be more to it than indicated.

In any case I couldn't care less about Kibbutzism, it is a failed form communism and history has passed judgement on it already.

I make my kids vote for who leads our household. They vote for a mom and a dad. However we mostly run uncontested and kids vote doesn't count. We have an electoral college consisting of my imaginary friends who are going to ensure I get in no matter what. But the important thing is my house is a democracy.

Manny said:

Again I don't make claims about numbers. I've only read the link the user provided, and commented on what it says. If it was a very small group relative to the whole, why did they take criticism for it? There must be more to it than indicated.

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Because no small group in America ever takes criticism. :roll:

Manny said:

In any case I couldn't care less about Kibbutzism, it is a failed form communism and history has passed judgement on it already.

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Failed? :lol: It's been expanding ever since it was started over a century ago.

Farmers in America have created and been a part of coops since the 1930's, another example of communism. Most are still going strong and a few have grown very large.

MoSurveyor said:

Because no small group in America ever takes criticism.

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Small group? According to the link, the people within these groups left them en-masse. The rats will leave the sinking ship.

MoSurveyor said:

Failed? :lol: It's been expanding ever since it was started over a century ago.

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Expanding, I think not. The link indicates that their movement underwent major economic collapse. They had to be bailed out by the banks, their debt erased to the tune of 2 Billion at 1993 values.
- Additional debt of 1.2 Billion NIS would be deleted with government funding.
- Raising of 1.7 billion NIS for repayment for the whole kibbutz debt to the banking system.
- Long-term redeployment of 6.7 billion NIS of the debt, with an interest rate of 4.5% per year.
- Cancellation of mutual Co-signing between the kibbutzim.

Sounds like an admirable, winning economic system to me. Not.
Sounds more like typical leftist failure due to insufficient production, lack of motivation and an insistence that despite being a failure, they deserve other people's money.

And I quote:
"During the 1990s many kibbutz members, especially those that previously had leading roles in the kibbutzim, decided to leave the kibbutz. They did this mainly because, in their view, the kibbutz was a body without a possibility of growth, under which the members’ standard of living would be frozen. The debt arrangements accelerated the brain drain of the kibbutzim, which made them non-creative and sped their transformations to economic entities that would adapt organizational solutions of a capitalist society that conflicted with their own principles, which eventually led to the dismantling of the majority of the kibbutzim."

Sound familiar, comrade?

I don't understand why you people can't read. Your own propaganda article makes it all too easy to pick apart the weak arguments you've presented in this thread.

MoSurveyor said:

Farmers in America have created and been a part of coops since the 1930's, another example of communism. Most are still going strong and a few have grown very large.

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Really, I bet lots of farmers wouldn't like to be equated to movements like this where they own no property, not even their clothes, where they make the same income working or not, where their children are taken away from the family and raised as part of a group. As usual, leftists try to equate one thing to something entirely different. Sorry, that pig does not fly.

Manny said:

Really, I bet lots of farmers wouldn't like to be equated to movements like this where they own no property, not even their clothes, where they make the same income working or not, where their children are taken away from the family and raised as part of a group. As usual, leftists try to equate one thing to something entirely different. Sorry, that pig does not fly.

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Don't confuse communism with Communism. The two are very different. Small 'c' communism is an economic system where the means of production are owned by the workers - as opposed to capitalism where it's owned by capitalists/investors (usually not the workers) or socialism where it's owned by the State. A farm coop is a communist entity as are many partnerships. My grandfather was part of a farm coop. In the 30's they weren't using the term "Communism" yet, so it wasn't a dirty word. People understood the concept for it's original meaning, not the capitalized 'C' PR campaign it turned into after WWII, which wasn't communism at all.

Kreton said:

I make my kids vote for who leads our household. They vote for a mom and a dad. However we mostly run uncontested and kids vote doesn't count. We have an electoral college consisting of my imaginary friends who are going to ensure I get in no matter what. But the important thing is my house is a democracy.

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Sounds a bit like the USA's election system.

Manny said:

Small group? According to the link, the people within these groups left them en-masse. The rats will leave the sinking ship.

Expanding, I think not. The link indicates that their movement underwent major economic collapse. They had to be bailed out by the banks, their debt erased to the tune of 2 Billion at 1993 values..

[snip wiki quote]

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To quote farther down:

Kibbutzim have branched out into tourism, among them Kiryat Anavim, Lavi and Nahsholim. Many kibbutzim rent out homes or run guesthouses. Several kibbutzim, such as Kibbutz Lotan and Kfar Ruppin, operate bird-watching vacations.

Today, some Kibbutzim operate major industrial ventures. For example, in 2010, Kibbutz Sasa, containing some 200 members, generated $850 million in annual revenue from its military-plastics industry.

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$850 million in revenue from 200 people is what you call "failing", you might want to rethink your personal definitions.

MoSurveyor said:

Don't confuse communism with Communism. The two are very different. Small 'c' communism is an economic system where the means of production are owned by the workers - as opposed to capitalism where it's owned by capitalists/investors (usually not the workers) or socialism where it's owned by the State. A farm coop is a communist entity as are many partnerships. My grandfather was part of a farm coop. In the 30's they weren't using the term "Communism" yet, so it wasn't a dirty word. People understood the concept for it's original meaning, not the capitalized 'C' PR campaign it turned into after WWII, which wasn't communism at all.

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I appreciate the anecdote.