• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

You're not the only one. He's making a pretty big claim, so I'm interested in seeing what he presents.

:shrug: it's fun to play with. I enjoyed the DaVinci Code, and a few of the copy-cat models that sprung up afterwards. But it's for enjoyment, beach reading, escape from reality, what-have-you. But it's the historical equivalent of this guy:

history-channel-hd-aliens-thumb.jpg
 
Last edited:
Wait, is this recycled conspiratard trash from zeitgeist?

Yeah. Every once in a while it gets regurgitated and has to be put back down.

"Oh, Mithra was also born of a virgin!!!"

:roll:

Mithra was (according to legend) born out of a rock in a cave. I guess you could technically consider a cave to be a virgin, as it has never engaged in sexual intercourse, but yeah, that's about the level of reaching that often typifies these kinds of claims.
 
:shrug: it's fun to play with. I enjoyed the DaVinci Code, and a few of the copy-cat models that sprung up afterwards. But it's for enjoyment, beach reading, escape from reality, what-have-you. But it's the historical equivalent of this guy:

history-channel-hd-aliens-thumb.jpg

I doubt it will be anything profound, and my expectations aren't high. Atwill's own words: "but what my work has done is give permission to many of those ready to leave the religion to make a clean break..." demonstrate that that the emphasis is ideological, not historical. Usually this kind of pseudo-science irritates the crap out of me, but his claim of an ancient "confession" has me interested.
 
:shrug: it's fun to play with. I enjoyed the DaVinci Code, and a few of the copy-cat models that sprung up afterwards. But it's for enjoyment, beach reading, escape from reality, what-have-you. But it's the historical equivalent of this guy:

history-channel-hd-aliens-thumb.jpg

Meh, the DC code was pretty bad. But admittedly as much as I hated that book, I did finish it. So the author is great at building suspense and developing a hook for his audience.
 
not really. I've actually met the God I worship.

What's he like? Does he have a strong hand shake or is it the limp fish? I think you can tell a lot about a god based on his hand shake.

My beliefs do not depend on some kind of grand, generation-spawning conspiracy involving thousands of individuals willing to work against their own self-interest in order to further a belief system that they know to be false out of some kind of morbid curiosity, and in which no one talks.

The plausibility of "Roman elites made it up" claim is about on-par with the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, or those who claim that aliens are sending radio waves to their heads which can only be blocked by tinfoil caps.

So you're saying you're not a christian?

I have no idea if this is true or if it's just the ramblings of a crazy person, as I've seen no evidence. Most likely it's the latter. My only point was that he could have the most clean, clear cut evidence proving that jesus was completely fabricated and never existed, and it still wouldn't matter. Christians would continue believing whatever the hell they want to believe.

It's not like you to overgeneralize in this way, so I'm more than a little surprised. Not all Christians have a "desperate need to believe." I do believe, and I believe with complete confidence, but this is not out of either desperation or need.

You're right, I tend to avoid overgeneralizing about large groups of people, however, in this case it's sadly true. Christians believe what they believe because it makes it easier for them to deal with life. My parents are extremely religious, it's something that defines them, and I would never want to take that away from them, but it does upset me a little that they have to lie to themselves to be able to accept their lives.

It doesn't matter what evidence this guy presents, it won't change christians at all, as a religion is based on faith, not facts.
 
Last edited:
You're not the only one. He's making a pretty big claim, so I'm interested in seeing what he presents.

You can watch a preview of the documentary here.....


Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus


The preview asked some interesting questions:


Who wrote the Gospels?

Why were they written in Greek rather than Hebrew or Aramaic?

Why did they have a pro-Roman perspective?

Why was the religion headquartered in Rome?

Why were the first Christian pope and earliest saints all members of the Flavius Caesar ruling family?

Why, why whyyyyyy?
 
You can watch a preview of the documentary here.....


Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus


The preview asked some interesting questions

Reading that I'm even more convinced that this is the type of trash "research" that can only find legs among internet scholars and new-age bookstores.

Welcome to this years Zeitgeist

PS There is an "interview" with the author on youtube, that is presented as a news show, but it looks more like something a random person produced with a VHS camcorder in their basement. pretty similar to the attempt to "report" through PRWeb.



someone lend that chick an iphone
 
Reading that I'm even more convinced that this is the type of trash "research" that can only find legs among internet scholars and new-age bookstores.

Welcome to this years Zeitgeist

PS There is an "interview" with the author on youtube, that is presented as a news show, but it looks more like something a random person produced with a VHS camcorder in their basement. pretty similar to the attempt to "report" through PRWeb.



someone lend that chick an iphone


You're right, that video was very cheesy...and very, very, droll. They looked like they were in their "time out" space. Meh, I think I'll wait for the movie. lol


But the questions were food for thought, yes, no?
 
But the questions were food for thought, yes, no?


Are they even real questions in academia, or do they just serve as clever fodder for people ignorant on the subject? His work seems based on drawing comparisons through his interpretation of "poetic text" which he claims were meant to conceal the truth from the average reader. Hence, why no one noticed them until he did ...
 
You can watch a preview of the documentary here.....


Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus


The preview asked some interesting questions:
I'll have to watch it when I get back home.


Who wrote the Gospels?
Unless proven otherwise, the gospels had various authors, all being Jewish-Christians.

Why were they written in Greek rather than Hebrew or Aramaic?
They were actually written in Koine Greek (there is a difference) which was a common language of politics, business, and trade in the Meditteranean region at the time. Much like English is today. Since Christianity was a religion to be spread to others, I imagine that using such a common language was the best approach. Judea is also right on the Mediterranean.

Why did they have a pro-Roman perspective?
I don't believe that they did.

Why was the religion headquartered in Rome?
That I couldn't tell you, since that's still up for debate. Judea was a Roman territory, which probably had a lot to do with it.

Why were the first Christian pope and earliest saints all members of the Flavius Caesar ruling family?
Whoever came up with that bit must have had something fun to drink. St Peter (the first Pope) was from Bethsaida, which would be in present day Syria. I somehow doubt that a Jewish Syrian would have any blood relation to a Roman Caesar.

Why, why whyyyyyy?
Well, it seems like a lot of falsified "evidence" is going to have to be weeded through on this one. I'm not a Christian, but I do demand factual integrity from scholars. The more I look into this, the more I doubt that facts have anything to do with it.
 
Are they even real questions in academia, or do they just serve as clever fodder for people ignorant on the subject? His work seems based on drawing comparisons through his interpretation of "poetic text" which he claims were meant to conceal the truth from the average reader. Hence, why no one noticed them until he did ...

Well, Jesus did speak in parables....so there might be some truth to that.

How do you know that no one noticed the 'questions' before Atwill did? Perhaps they did but they were burned at the stake.



The ancient Romans often incorporated aspects of a conquered peoples religion and culture into their own as a means of expanding their empire. So it's not that unfeasible that superstition and religion were used to control the masses all throughout ancient Rome and all through the Middle Ages up to the Age of Enlightenment.
 
Last edited:
The real travesty is the amount of bloodshed and discrimination brought on by zealotry over a fictional character. Doesn't speak too highly of humans.

"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends."
 
Call back when you have ACTUAL historical evidence that passes the scruitiny of scholarship ... NO ONE in historical scholarship believes Jesus of Nazareth was a myth .... that opinion was around in the 19th century and is a laughing stock now in modern historical scholarship.

The whole mythicist idea, that Jesus was based on pagan myths, has been disproven over and over and over again, and is a laughing stock idea in historical scholarship. (because a 1st century Jew would base a jewish messiah on pagan myths from centuries earlier in far away lands that he wouldn't had even heard of unless he had extensive greek education or egyptian education, and mutliple sources would have done the exact samething indepentantly, ohhh and they would have had to have gotten those myths totally wrong because the myths don't actually parallel the life of Jesus at all when you actually look at them).

These conspiracy theories are akin to 911 conspiracies, trying to make connections that don't actually exist ...
 
Well, Jesus did speak in parables....so there might be some truth to that.

you can't really base historical fact on such interpretations because they offer too high of a degree of personal latitude in their meaning

How do you know that no one noticed the 'questions' before Atwill did? Perhaps they did but they were burned at the stake.

I asked if they were even questions in academia or appealing bits meant to sound appealing to people largely ignorant of the topic. I'm not sure how the above addresses that concern

The ancient Romans often incorporated aspects of a conquered peoples religion and culture into their own as a means of expanding their empire. So it's not that unfeasible that superstition and religion were used to control the masses all throughout ancient Rome and all through the Middle Ages up to the Age of Enlightenment.

Off the top of my head, the problem with this is that Christianity promoted a monotheistic perspective on god, which would actively work against the above
 
Without Jesus Christianity basically becomes Judaism . So even if Jesus is a myth people may just be switching over religion's . So Atheist don't get to excited . ( okay maybe a little but not to much)
 
Call back when you have ACTUAL historical evidence that passes the scruitiny of scholarship ... NO ONE in historical scholarship believes Jesus of Nazareth was a myth .... that opinion was around in the 19th century and is a laughing stock now in modern historical scholarship.
The religious scholars of the day laughed at Galileo, too.


The whole mythicist idea, that Jesus was based on pagan myths, has been disproven over and over and over again, and is a laughing stock idea in historical scholarship. (because a 1st century Jew would base a jewish messiah on pagan myths from centuries earlier in far away lands that he wouldn't had even heard of unless he had extensive greek education or egyptian education, and mutliple sources would have done the exact samething indepentantly, ohhh and they would have had to have gotten those myths totally wrong because the myths don't actually parallel the life of Jesus at all when you actually look at them).
Until they find the physical evidence that Jesus existed such as a skeleton or a diary then belief is all it is.
 
The religious scholars of the day laughed at Galileo, too.

No they didn't, the Vatican condemned him as a heretic and killed him.

Also Galileo was a scientist, this guy isn't even a historian, I'm saying HISTORICAL scholars, secular and religious, from universities, laugh at the mythicist theory, why? Because it doesn't match the evidence.

Until they find the physical evidence that Jesus existed such as a skeleton or a diary then belief is all it is.

Do you hold that standard up for every other historical figure?

(if we found Jesus' skeleton then CHristianity would be proven false btw).
 
No they didn't, the Vatican condemned him as a heretic and killed him.

No, they didn't. He died of natural causes in his own home at the (for then) grand old age of 77.
 
No they didn't, the Vatican condemned him as a heretic and killed him.
No, they didn't. The Vatican put him under house arrest for the rest of his life. The irony is that Galileo wrote some of his best work while under house arrest.


"...He was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.[11][12] It was while Galileo was under house arrest that he wrote one of his finest works, Two New Sciences, in which he summarised the work he had done some forty years earlier, on the two sciences now called kinematics and strength of materials.[13][14]
Galileo Galilei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Also Galileo was a scientist, this guy isn't even a historian, I'm saying HISTORICAL scholars, secular and religious, from universities, laugh at the mythicist theory, why? Because it doesn't match the evidence.
Okay, it was religious "historical" scholars that laughed at Galileo. Is that better? The point is many of his own peers and religious historical scholars were judging the science of Galileo as false.

Do you hold that standard up for every other historical figure? (if we found Jesus' skeleton then CHristianity would be proven false btw).
Pretty much. How do you know if Abraham really existed? Because the Bible tells you so?
 
No, they didn't. He died of natural causes in his own home at the (for then) grand old age of 77.

You're right my bad, but my main point stands .... there is no church authority controling historical studies or the new testament or 1st century judaism and so on, the people laughing at the mythicist theory are historical scholars.
 
Okay, it was religious historical" scholars that laughed at Galileo. Is that better? The point is many of his own peers and religious historical scholars were judging the science of Galileo as false.

Pretty much. How do you know if Abraham really existed? Because the Bible tells you so?

It would have been better if they had actual evidence proving him wrong.

Galileo's theory was rational and supported by evidence, the mythicist theories are not, they've been brought up since the 19th century and have failed every time, and been proven wrong every time.

So do you not believe that Augustus cesear existed? We don't have his skelaton or his diaries. What about Genghis kahn? What about King Edward, what about Socrates, what about King Leonidus, what about Cleopatra ....

We don't have personal diaries or skeletons for those people .... And many many many many more historical figures you'd have to be an idiot to deny existed.
 
You're right my bad, but my main point stands .... there is no church authority controling historical studies or the new testament or 1st century judaism and so on, the people laughing at the mythicist theory are historical scholars.

I take your point. It's important not to judge religious beliefs in the context of historical investigation. Those trying to justify their faith by claiming historical accuracy for their scriptures are on a losing wicket, just as those seeking to undermine religious faith by disproving the historical accuracy of those scriptures are missing the point. Keep the two apart; they are unreconcilable.
 
I take your point. It's important not to judge religious beliefs in the context of historical investigation. Those trying to justify their faith by claiming historical accuracy for their scriptures are on a losing wicket, just as those seeking to undermine religious faith by disproving the historical accuracy of those scriptures are missing the point. Keep the two apart; they are unreconcilable.

Well, in general I'd say fine, but I would say the historicity of the death and ressurection of Christ, and his claim and overall message, is vital to christian faith.
 
What's he like? Does he have a strong hand shake or is it the limp fish? I think you can tell a lot about a god based on his hand shake.

:) couldn't tell you that - I've never shaken His hand.

So you're saying you're not a christian?

:) Trite, but a strawman - as that description does not accurately apply to the early Church.

I have no idea if this is true or if it's just the ramblings of a crazy person, as I've seen no evidence. Most likely it's the latter.

Given the plain even secular historical implausibility of his claims, yes.

My only point was that he could have the most clean, clear cut evidence proving that jesus was completely fabricated and never existed, and it still wouldn't matter. Christians would continue believing whatever the hell they want to believe.

:shrug: I can understand why you think that. There is a heavy presumption among many of the more assertive non-believers that Christians believe in Jesus because the Bible told them so, rather than the other way 'round.

You're right, I tend to avoid overgeneralizing about large groups of people, however, in this case it's sadly true. Christians believe what they believe because it makes it easier for them to deal with life.

:lol: I almost wish that were true :p Being a Christian demands that one work much harder at life, it puts quite a few more requirements into life. It certainly does not make life easier - it makes life better.

My parents are extremely religious, it's something that defines them, and I would never want to take that away from them, but it does upset me a little that they have to lie to themselves to be able to accept their lives.

:) And you never asked yourself if perhaps they weren't lying?
 
The religious scholars of the day laughed at Galileo, too.

:prof Not true - the Jesuits in particular were very interested in and corroborated Galileo's work, and the Pope even gave him a medal of commendation for it. It was when he took his studies in geometry and astronomy into theology and began to insist on changes to Church Doctrine (in particular to argue that heliocentrism dispelled the idea of a special relationship between God and Man) that he ran afoul of the Church authorities.

Everyone always says Galileo was put under (rather pleasant) house arrest for his science - he wasn't. The Catholic Church was a supporter of his science. He was put into house arrest for his theological teachings.

Until they find the physical evidence that Jesus existed such as a skeleton or a diary then belief is all it is.

We have multiple, "Diaries", if you wish to call them that, in the form of what historians call "Primary Sources".

But that is an interesting historical case. We do not have the bones or the personal diary of (for example) Ghengis Khan, Charlemagne, or Suleyman the Great - would you argue that their historical reality is "merely a belief" rather than one backed by evidence?
 
Back
Top Bottom