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The reason why atheism is the stupidest of religions and won't survive

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Actually, most atheist groups I have seen are PROFOUNDLY political.

They got to where they are in the first place usually out of frustration with people trying to institute religion as law, and the general bigotry they experience in the world.

So basically... you think ANYTHING that ever addresses the religious is therefore a religion?

Your assertion becomes more ridiculous by the minute.
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Ok. We seem to hit a barrier here.

Atheists can be political. As in individuals or groups of people. But atheism in principle has nothing to do with politics. I mean, you don't be come an atheist to adhere to a political faction. You become an atheist to adhere to a godless philosophy. So atheism has no inherent political values or political stances.

When atheism becomes an institution... or when it turns into a popular movement, it may very well develop several branches to it. So an atheist movement may have claims to not teach creationism in schools. That's a political aspect. But atheism inherently, is not against creationism because atheism inherently has no holy books that says what an atheist should believe in about how humans and the world was created. The fact that many atheists, in lack of a creationist theory to explain such mysteries for them, adopt the scientific view of how the world came to be, doesn't mean that atheism in itself, has such a view. Atheism has no view on how the world came to be.

You're just unwilling to accept that you are now part of a movement that is hypocritical and pathetic and that takes on a religious connotation and will continue to become more and more frantically religious with each passing day.

Christianity was like this too 2000 years ago. Ofc, back then, Christians endured huge persecutions, even deaths in scores all over the mediterranian basin, atheists today have it easy in comparison. But Christianity 2000 years ago wasn't a single formed entity. There were all sort of christian movements or philosophies. In order to stop and dissuade any form of heresy, eventually, a centralized Christian religious authority was formed that would spread a single version of Christianity. Eventually that didn't work, and stuff broke down and various Christian cults emerged... but yeah. Atheism will go through the same process.

You will first have new atheist "cults" emerge, then the need for a centralized institution to "regulate" atheism will happen... maybe in 40-50 years... then division of that will occur... and so on and so on. Just like a real religion :). Only a hypocritical one.
 
Rainman05 said:
Ok. We seem to hit a barrier here.

Atheists can be political. As in individuals or groups of people. But atheism in principle has nothing to do with politics. I mean, you don't be come an atheist to adhere to a political faction. You become an atheist to adhere to a godless philosophy. So atheism has no inherent political values or political stances.

When atheism becomes an institution... or when it turns into a popular movement, it may very well develop several branches to it. So an atheist movement may have claims to not teach creationism in schools. That's a political aspect. But atheism inherently, is not against creationism because atheism inherently has no holy books that says what an atheist should believe in about how humans and the world was created. The fact that many atheists, in lack of a creationist theory to explain such mysteries for them, adopt the scientific view of how the world came to be, doesn't mean that atheism in itself, has such a view. Atheism has no view on how the world came to be.

You're just unwilling to accept that you are now part of a movement that is hypocritical and pathetic and that takes on a religious connotation and will continue to become more and more frantically religious with each passing day.

Christianity was like this too 2000 years ago. Ofc, back then, Christians endured huge persecutions, even deaths in scores all over the mediterranian basin, atheists today have it easy in comparison. But Christianity 2000 years ago wasn't a single formed entity. There were all sort of christian movements or philosophies. In order to stop and dissuade any form of heresy, eventually, a centralized Christian religious authority was formed that would spread a single version of Christianity. Eventually that didn't work, and stuff broke down and various Christian cults emerged... but yeah. Atheism will go through the same process.

You will first have new atheist "cults" emerge, then the need for a centralized institution to "regulate" atheism will happen... maybe in 40-50 years... then division of that will occur... and so on and so on. Just like a real religion :). Only a hypocritical one.
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You still have not explained to me how atheism would be a religion, yet any other fractured group is not.

Also, this is all based on some completely unsupported conjecture that you're making about the distance future. There is no evidence that any "cults" are forming anywhere.

Again, if you expect me to take Reddit is a barometer of reality, then I am quite concerned about anime cults.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
You still have not explained to me how atheism would be a religion, yet any other fractured group is not.

Also, this is all based on some completely unsupported conjecture that you're making about the distance future. There is no evidence that any "cults" are forming anywhere.

Again, if you expect me to take Reddit is a barometer of reality, then I am quite concerned about anime cults.
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You mean aside from all the explanations I gave to with historical support and context to show you how history is repeating itself in the form of the new atheist religion?

Ok.

Well, if you can't see the parallels and the pretty obvious details that form this picture... then you'll just have to wait a bit longer, until it becomes even more obvious and you won't be able to ignore the signs. And when it does, remember, Rainman told you first :).

reddit is not a barometer for reality. But there is no 2mil+ real life atheist community anywhere to inspect... so yeah. besides, the internet is the gathering spot for atheists. It's like observing Christians in a Church or the jews in a Sinagogue or etc. And r/atheism is the biggest cathedral.
 
Rainman05 said:
You mean aside from all the explanations I gave to with historical support and context to show you how history is repeating itself in the form of the new atheist religion?

Ok.

Well, if you can't see the parallels and the pretty obvious details that form this picture... then you'll just have to wait a bit longer, until it becomes even more obvious and you won't be able to ignore the signs. And when it does, remember, Rainman told you first :).

reddit is not a barometer for reality. But there is no 2mil+ real life atheist community anywhere to inspect... so yeah. besides, the internet is the gathering spot for atheists. It's like observing Christians in a Church or the jews in a Sinagogue or etc. And r/atheism is the biggest cathedral.
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Because people are arguing on Reddit?

Like I said, I think we should focus our attention on the anime cultists, if people arguing on Reddit is how we measure these things. There far more of them, I'd wager.

There's a reason there's no 2 million-member atheist group in the real world. Can you guess what it is?

Atheists don't care enough to make one. And there's no earthly reason why they would, since atheism is not a religion.

On the other hand, arguing on the internet isn't necessarily time-consuming, and you can go there as an individual and simply banter with whoever's around, as you and I are doing right now.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Because people are arguing on Reddit?

Like I said, I think we should focus our attention on the anime cultists, if people arguing on Reddit is how we measure these things. There far more of them, I'd wager.

There's a reason there's no 2 million-member atheist group in the real world. Can you guess what it is?

Atheists don't care enough to make one. And there's no earthly reason why they would, since atheism is not a religion.

On the other hand, arguing on the internet isn't necessarily time-consuming, and you can go there as an individual and simply banter with whoever's around, as you and I are doing right now.
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No, it's because there are no 2million atheists in a single, interconnected real world location, that I know of. That atheists know of for that matter. The single most interconnected, common area is the internet, and r/atheism is the biggest one that I am aware of. So it is representative of the atheist zeitgeist...

Ok. Anime fans are anime fans because of why? The object of their focus is anime. Atheists and religious people don't have, their capacity as theists and atheists, an interest in anime.

We don't have to argue.
 
Rainman05 said:
Yes, but atheism defines itself in opposition to religions, not in opposition to political movements or I don't know... favorite sports drinks or drinks in general.

It's like its the coca cola vs pepsi people, where people pick a side and trash the other side even though, within the pepsi crowd, you have the people who like pepsi twist, pepsi lemon or regular old pepsi. It's just like this. But these movements define themselves according to beverags. They are beverage-related movements.

Religion is basically a theist movement (or movements based off the numerous religions that exist) and atheism is in opposition to those movements. It defines itself as not being a religion, when in fact, it has much of the same trajectory and organizational aspects as a modern, XXIth century religion, well adapted to the new age we live in. Good at spreading the gospel of atheism through popular mass information methods.
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No, atheism is in opposition (if you want to use that word) to theism. And neither are religions. There are a minority of atheists who happen to be religious and a minority of theists who are not religious. There are Buddhists and Janists who don't believe in any gods but are religious. Hell, I have even heard of some atheists who consider themselves Christian. They follow the teachings of Christ but without the supernatural stuff. I don't get it, but they are religious. Meanwhile, a theist, such as deists, who believe a god created the universe but otherwise takes no interest whatsoever in the lives of humans are not religious because they don't pray nor do they believe this god wants anything from them, and they may not even believe in an afterlife.

You are trying to redefine words. As I have shown, it is possible for atheists to be religious. Even if 2 million atheists from around the world get together online and announced the opening of the Church of R/Atheism, began praying to the Alter of Atheism (a blank wall) and began going door to door to deconvert people, the best you could say is that those atheists are religious. But atheism would still not be a religion.
 
Rainman05 said:
No, it's because there are no 2million atheists in a single, interconnected real world location, that I know of. That atheists know of for that matter. The single most interconnected, common area is the internet, and r/atheism is the biggest one that I am aware of. So it is representative of the atheist zeitgeist...

Ok. Anime fans are anime fans because of why? The object of their focus is anime. Atheists and religious people don't have, their capacity as theists and atheists, an interest in anime.

We don't have to argue.
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You'd be hard pressed to find 2 million Baptists in a given town too, but they simply start churches other places, all of which are Baptist.

Atheism has nothing even close to that, even in places with very high atheist populations (there's a world outside America, you know). They have a couple discussion groups scattered around. A couple groups dedicated to repealing bigoted laws. That's pretty much it. None of them put forth any idea of what atheism is "supposed" to be. They don't have any tenants or any real organization.

Not only that, but I don't think I've ever met an atheist who was interested in starting something like that, or even attending. Well, not counting satirical, tongue-in-cheek kind of things like Basement Cat and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

So your argument is that anime groups and atheists groups are completely different worlds... simply because they are? Ok then. :lol:
 
Rainman05 said:
Yes, but atheism defines itself in opposition to religions, not in opposition to political movements or I don't know... favorite sports drinks or drinks in general.

It's like its the coca cola vs pepsi people, where people pick a side and trash the other side even though, within the pepsi crowd, you have the people who like pepsi twist, pepsi lemon or regular old pepsi. It's just like this. But these movements define themselves according to beverags. They are beverage-related movements.

Religion is basically a theist movement (or movements based off the numerous religions that exist) and atheism is in opposition to those movements. It defines itself as not being a religion, when in fact, it has much of the same trajectory and organizational aspects as a modern, XXIth century religion, well adapted to the new age we live in. Good at spreading the gospel of atheism through popular mass information methods.
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In what way does atheism spread it's information that any other group of people wouldn't? Can you find a single group, or hell, any thing that doesn't have at least one semi popular website?

You just basically argued that you're original argument was false. It's not a religion. It's defined as no religion. This whole thread is an exercise in futility if you have no idea what you're even arguing.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
How is Atheism not a religion? Do explain.
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An atheist doesn't believe in a god. That's it. Maybe you could say secular humanism is a religion, but atheism only implies a lack of belief in a god. There're no implied set of morals or customs.
 
afr0byte said:
An atheist doesn't believe in a god. That's it. Maybe you could say secular humanism is a religion, but atheism only implies a lack of belief in a god. There're no implied set of morals or customs.
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You don't have to have a god to have a religion.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
You don't have to have a god to have a religion.
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I never said you did. However, the only thing atheists necessarily have in common is their lack of a belief in a god. I'm not sure how you think that makes for a religion.
 
HonestJoe said:
Edit: Oh, and even if atheism were a religion, you've not explained what makes it the "stupidest" one.[/QUOTE

Religious believers define stupid beliefs as any belief other than their own. The farther away from their religion, the stupider you are. Since no religion at all is as far away from their beliefs as you can get, it must be the stupidest.
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davidtaylorjr said:
In that case Christianity is not a religion either.
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By conventional practice it most certainly is - it involves following defined rules and principals, prayer and worship in some form or another, active practice towards a (albeit varying) end point.

These days (and probably in the past to be honest) a whole load of people identify themselves as Christian yet don't actively do anything differently as a result and there is a legitimate debate as to whether such people are really Christian. That's kind of off topic here unfortunately.

Edit: For added complexity, there is also the question of whether Christianity is one religion or a set of several distinct ones.
 
HonestJoe said:
By conventional practice it most certainly is - it involves following defined rules and principals, prayer and worship in some form or another, active practice towards a (albeit varying) end point.

These days (and probably in the past to be honest) a whole load of people identify themselves as Christian yet don't actively do anything differently as a result and there is a legitimate debate as to whether such people are really Christian. That's kind of off topic here unfortunately.

Edit: For added complexity, there is also the question of whether Christianity is one religion or a set of several distinct ones.
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But by the standard you set forth earlier, Christian is who I AM. Therefore can't be a religion by your definition. You can't have it both ways.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
But by the standard you set forth earlier, Christian is who I AM. Therefore can't be a religion by your definition. You can't have it both ways.
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It wasn't intended as a formal definition, it was a pithy phrase to make a what I thought was a simple point. I guess I need to expand on it though.

Atheism (to save time, assume an "or theism") is a term which describes a singular belief position on the existence of gods. It is something an individual either has or doesn't and can't be (directly) controlled. An atheist is an atheist regardless of anything they say and do or anything else they believe.

A religion is a set of practices, generally encompassing rules and actions. Being religions requires some deliberate thought or action (however small) on the individuals part.

Obviously in common terms, someone who practices Christianity is a Christian and someone who is somehow expressing the fact they are atheist can be said to be "practicing" atheism but that just masks the fundamental difference between the terms (and between atheism or theism and any religion).
 
HonestJoe said:
By conventional practice it most certainly is - it involves following defined rules and principals, prayer and worship in some form or another, active practice towards a (albeit varying) end point.

These days (and probably in the past to be honest) a whole load of people identify themselves as Christian yet don't actively do anything differently as a result and there is a legitimate debate as to whether such people are really Christian. That's kind of off topic here unfortunately.

Edit: For added complexity, there is also the question of whether Christianity is one religion or a set of several distinct ones.
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Christianity as a term is something that is historically relatively recent trend. As little as 50 years ago (maybe less) people defined themselves as Lutheran, Calvinist, Protistan, or Baptist to name a few. Identifying as "Christian" is simply a way for those that believe in the god of the bible to unite against non-Christians.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
But by the standard you set forth earlier, Christian is who I AM. Therefore can't be a religion by your definition. You can't have it both ways.
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Your obfuscating by intentionally twisting words....

A Christian may be who you are, but it is the second step, not the first.....To be a Christian you must believe in the god of the Christian Bible.

You can make the claim that your Christian, but not "religious", but that would be nonsensical given the definition of religion is:

Noun
The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods

Imagine me saying "a teacher is who I am", but asked what I teach I say "nothing".
 
Skepticism is my nature.
Free Thought is my methodology.
Agnosticism is my conclusion.
Atheism is my opinion.
Humanitarianism is my motivation.
—Jerry DeWitt
 
Rainman05 said:
And yes, atheism is now on its way to being a full-on religion.

Reddit is a notoriously atheistic place, with its most popular subreddit, r/atheism having over 2mil official subscribers and millions more of lukers. And in it you had endless waves of posts praising everybody from Carl Sagan to the comedian Gervais. r/atheism even has multiple subreddits itself that complement the "main course". subreddits focused on helping people break the news to their loved ones that they're atheists, and also where to brag about it. Places where you can receive information and help on how to start an "atheists" club at your school. This is the organizational methods of a religious organization, well adapted to the XXIth century. Atheism is the most perverse of religions at this point. It is a religion that doesn't even have the balls to admit it is a religion to start with.

Now I have nothing against atheism and atheists, but I do have something against militant atheists and anti-religious zealots. Both of which the online environment of reddit, and its real-life subsidiaries that get created because of the online influence, promotes. Severe anti-religiousness and militancy. So it is therefore only fit that now, r/atheism is goign through a massive identity crisis. Almost all the discussion topics there are about how r/atheism is bad now simply because a new moderator has been put in charge of this subreddit apparently. So for the past 5 days you have all these other "atheist" subreddits spring to live, each turning on each other. Atheismreborn. Atheismrebooted. newatheism, etc. And for a while now, there were various atheist subreddits specifically for those atheists who wanted to not be considered as part of the other atheists.

So like catholics and protestants.

Now I know, I know, online environment is different than real life. But lets face it, we live in an online world. Saying that "oh just because it's online it doesn't matter" doesn't work anymore. Online behavior and online life is very connected to real life and what happens online haunts you in reality and is indicative of this. So now, there is a religious war between the atheists on reddit. Many sides to be taken. the "protestant" atheists are the majority, overtaking the "catholic" atheists but the "catholic" atheists are still holding strong because they're in power so far.

It's just hilarious. And the zealotry is obvious. The main "battleground" is over memes. The pro-meme side argues that memes are a great way to "convert" people to atheism, while others defend the taking down of memes as being "karma-whoring" and annoying. I say it won't be long now till the online interractions in reddit turn to real life and real atheists "bishops" have to be selected, along with a whole "clergy" to help organize the many lanes of attack that atheism needs to have in order to convert people.

Request a Group Starting Packet | Secular Student Alliance

This is just one. How to start an "atheist" group. Churches were just that initially you know, for Christians. A place where many Christians got together to pray and comfort one another. They could have been anything from houses to actual chapels.
:)

So bottom line. Atheism is a religion. Online, in reddit, its going through the great schism. Militant atheists and anti-religious zealots are in the same pot with the zealots of any other religion. Except there is no organized "clergy" yet to tell them to murder people or blow themselves up for atheism. But the rest of the same methods are there. How to convert people. How to start groups for atheists. How to promote atheism. How to inform your friends and family of your atheist religion. And all that good stuff.
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Hey, I am a/an (I can never pick the correct one) Atheist and I agree with you...somewhat. I have the say, the "Atheist" on Reddit are a bunch of crybabies and as you say, anti-religious zealots. Heck, the people on Reddit are just using Atheism to rebel against their parents and it is cool. That's why you see a lot of young kids saying they are Atheist and are on the left, it's to mainstream to be Christian and conservative.
 
Darrell said:
Hey, I am a/an (I can never pick the correct one) Atheist and I agree with you...somewhat. I have the say, the "Atheist" on Reddit are a bunch of crybabies and as you say, anti-religious zealots. Heck, the people on Reddit are just using Atheism to rebel against their parents and it is cool. That's why you see a lot of young kids saying they are Atheist and are on the left, it's to mainstream to be Christian and conservative.
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Sorry, but I have a pet peeve. It's atheist, not Atheist, unless there's some official Church of Atheism that I'm unaware of, or you're saying you're a member of a group like American Atheists.
 
afr0byte said:
Sorry, but I have a pet peeve. It's atheist, not Atheist, unless there's some official Church of Atheism that I'm unaware of, or you're saying you're a member of a group like American Atheists.
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Sorry, atheist.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
3. Yes, certain groups within modern atheism do bear a resemblance to the very things about religion that they criticize: intolerance, bigotry, irrationality, overemotional behavior, et al.. You see a lot of this on DP.
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That exactly.

I was an atheist (never militant or zealous, though) most of my life, but turned towards religion a couple of years ago. I live in an extremely atheist/secular environment. In Berlin, being atheist is about as original as being Jewish in Israel. Back in my elementary school, the few pupils who claimed believing in God (maybe two to four out of 80 in my year) were ridiculed by the others like kids who still believe in Santa Claus.

I understand very well when people living in a very religious environment, where there are many rather zealous and superstitious religious people (like some Christian regions in the US, where certain Christians attacking science and dominating public life are dominant), are annoyed by it and then overshoot the mark when attacking religion.

What I don't understand is why people here in my atheist environment suddenly become militant atheists. They have the misled feeling they're somehow "cool" by attacking "the mainstream", although they ARE the mainstream and religion has lost the fight decades ago. And they know next to nothing about religion. Religion is so weak here that basically any other political group is a bigger threat to their secular way of life than religion is. They attack religious people for their alleged intolerance and bigotry, but personally, I have never met remotely the level of intolerance directed towards me by religious people than by atheists who attacked me for joining a religion.

We do not have a number of religious people of notable size who are against evolution in school curricula, against abortion in the first trimester, against homosexual civil union. We don't have religious people dominating public life. Our mayor is an openly gay atheist. It never was the slightest problem for him in public opinion and he was re-elected two times so far.

And this vocal, "militant" smart-ass atheism is indeed a new thing. Most of my life, atheists would just shrug, or maybe laugh about the few religious people we still have here, but otherwise leave them alone. Lately, they've started vocally advancing their atheist cause against their windmills (because hardly any religious person reads their stuff on facebook/chain mails, so basically, it's just an echo-room backslapping exercize).
 
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