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Memes - Do you believe what you believe?

grip said:
One day my father told me to look at issues from different sides, which had a big impact. It made me decide to have opinions based solely on what was fair and reasonable and not on anything biased. This was much more difficult to consider all the variables and formulate a rational view for every topic. It also made me unpopular with anybody who was partisan on a majority of issues. Now I'm back to, "I don't care, it doesn't affect me and it's boring." :)
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I have become that way to a certain extent. I know that I am a dinosaur relative to many people, and I know that the world will move in the direction dictated by emotion, rather than reason, since so many people function more on an emotional plane, than a rational and thoughtful one. The one issue that I am still somewhat passionate about is gun rights, because it's the only that even has a chance of insuring the rest.
 
The government v. militia aspect of the guns argument appears to be prevalent in the South. I'm not sure if this is an example of a meme, but it's something I can't sink my teeth into. Perhaps this is what prevents me from fully understanding the issue.
 
Amadeus said:
This is kind of a paradoxical question that probably can't be answered, but maybe it will lead to an interesting discussion...

Do you think your opinions on certain issues (e.g. guns, religion) are self-derived, or do you think that your environment has contributed to the shaping of your beliefs? Would you have the same opinions if you studied a particular topic in a societal vacuum? Are you the victim or product of a memetic thinking?
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The question is somewhat meaningless, in that we are all affected by our environment, our upbringing, our our genetics, our education, our society, the times we live in, etc etc. To speculate on what we might believe if we were tabula-rasa (a dubious concept itself) in a societal vaccuum is a pointless exercise, as no human grows up that way.

For instance, since you mentioned guns... I grew up in a rural household where guns for hunting, sport and defense were an everyday part of life. I first started shooting at age 5. I took it for granted... I was in my teens before I truly realized that people who literally hated guns were not some tiny lunatic fringe hiding in a cave somewhere, and I found the notion that there were millions of people like that astonishing and baffling... as baffling as you might consider people who hated bicycles, screwdrivers and power-saws.

In college I encountered some of these mythical creatures, people who were actually anti-gun who could articulate their reasons in some fashion. Intrigued, I began to wonder if perhaps that which I'd grown up taking for granted might actually be wrong.... I embarked on a lengthy study, reading several books and consulting such stats and data as were available in pre-Internet times, genuinely seeking to determine where the truth lay.

I will leave the revelation of what conclusion I came to as an intellectual exercise for the student. :)

My intellectual conclusions were tempered and tested during the years following, both the time I spent in Law Enforcement, and other incidents including the murder of a dear friend and losing several less-dear friends and acquaintances to violence; and a couple of incidents I barely survived.

Will a person who knows nothing of the existence of snakes, think to wear sturdy high boots in rattler territory? No. Our environment affects what we see as necessary caution.


Something similar regarding religion. Grew up in a far-right fundamentalist "Evangelical" church (parents were not as far right as the church but that's another story). Questioned most of what I believed from 19-22. Reaffirmed my faith in Christianity at 22, albeit with a considerably more tolerant viewpoint on moral/cultural issues than my old preacher would have approved of.


Politics? My parents were JFK Democrats and Reagan Republicans, fairly conservative but not rabid about it. My sisters were hippies, and ranged from radical far-left to apathetic. The rest of my family varied also. My journey to get where I am today (independent centrist, leaning mostly center-right) was a long one, passing through the range of conservative and libertarian philosophies, including a brief flirtation with anarchy and a short affair with authoritarianism, and a half-nod to certain center-left economic policies.


Certainly I was influenced by my family, friends, teachers, education, environment, experiences... everyone is. But there were intellectual processes ongoing throughout it all. Sapience means an opportunity to think about things and CHOOSE... and I certainly did some thinking and made some choices along the way.
 
Amadeus said:
The government v. militia aspect of the guns argument appears to be prevalent in the South. I'm not sure if this is an example of a meme, but it's something I can't sink my teeth into. Perhaps this is what prevents me from fully understanding the issue.
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A good number of us (Americans) are rebels at heart. We don't like to be told what to do. We don't want to be controlled. We are big girls and boys, and can dictate our own lives. That's the kind of stock we come from- immigrants who gave up everything to find a new life, in the new world.
 
lizzie said:
A good number of us (Americans) are rebels at heart. We don't like to be told what to do. We don't want to be controlled. We are big girls and boys, and can dictate our own lives. That's the kind of stock we come from- immigrants who gave up everything to find a new life, in the new world.
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Exactly. And there ain't no rebel like a Southern Rebel. :mrgreen:


(If you're not from around here, a useful intellectual aid might be to imagine crossing wild Irish with Jacobite Scot, Hessian/Prussian mercenaries and Cromwellian English along with a large dose of Indian Brave... cuz that is exactly what happened. Mix well, add a war where we fought off four times our numbers for four years and lost anyway and were marginalized for a century, stir in some resentment and regional seperatism and you'll have an inkling of how bad we are. We're stubborn and proud and clannish and warlike and independent and rebellous and welcoming and gracious and charitable and hot headed and generous and brave to a fault.)
 
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lizzie said:
A good number of us (Americans) are rebels at heart. We don't like to be told what to do. We don't want to be controlled. We are big girls and boys, and can dictate our own lives. That's the kind of stock we come from- immigrants who gave up everything to find a new life, in the new world.
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I can't connect with you here. I come from meagre stock. No geniuses, war heroes, or rebels. I may have some Native Canadian in me, I'm not quite sure. If I am a rebel or non-conformist, I prefer to think that I carved out that personality for myself.
 
Amadeus said:
I can't connect with you here. I come from meagre stock. No geniuses, war heroes, or rebels. I may have some Native Canadian in me, I'm not quite sure. If I am a rebel or non-conformist, I prefer to think that I carved out that personality for myself.
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I believe that we all like to think we carved it out for ourselves, but I have little doubt that genetics plays a big role. I come from tough ornery people, going back to at least the mid-1700's. I come from farmers and preachers, going back to that time period. One of my ancestors came here as a stowaway on a ship from Germany. One of them fought in the revolutionary war, one in the war of 1812, and two of them in the Civil War. My paternal grandfather was a cuss of a man, who was tough as nails. He smoked for almost 70 years, drank pretty heavily as a young man, and never went to doctors. Didn't take any medications. He tilled his entire back yard, with a push tiller, for a vegetable garden when he was 86 years old. That's what I come from.
 
lizzie said:
I have become that way to a certain extent. I know that I am a dinosaur relative to many people, and I know that the world will move in the direction dictated by emotion, rather than reason, since so many people function more on an emotional plane, than a rational and thoughtful one. The one issue that I am still somewhat passionate about is gun rights, because it's the only that even has a chance of insuring the rest.
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I still have opinions but I don't defend them as vehemently knowing everyone has a right to their point of view. Plus what I believe has little effect on anything. All you hear is the passion anymore and though the world still runs mostly on reason it is becoming somewhat lost from a lack of prioritizing.

I think, I know what you're saying about guns being the last bastion towards our freedoms being suppressed. I've argued this position in 2nd amendment threads. I appreciate guns for sport shooting and knives for functionality and craftsmanship but I'm not a fan of hurting people for any reason.
 
grip said:
I still have opinions but I don't defend them as vehemently knowing everyone has a right to their point of view. Plus what I believe has little effect on anything. All you hear is the passion anymore and though the world still runs mostly on reason it is becoming somewhat lost from a lack of prioritizing.

I think, I know what you're saying about guns being the last bastion towards our freedoms being suppressed. I've argued this position in 2nd amendment threads. I appreciate guns for sport shooting and knives for functionality and craftsmanship but I'm not a fan of hurting people for any reason.
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To the bolded: Nor am I, but I will definitely defend myself if threatened.
 
lizzie said:
To the bolded: Nor am I, but I will definitely defend myself if threatened.
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Anyone would, unless they're overwhelmed or paralyzed with fear. After my last few fights in school I put out the rumor and a few deeds that I was absolutely bonkers, which scared the hell out of everybody....lol
 
sawyerloggingon said:
You sound more like a liberal than a libertarian. There is no blurry line between right and wrong in the vast majority of situations. Lets say someone cuts you off driving down the highway. Do you pull up beside them and open fire with your pistol or is that wrong?
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Either one. Whichever I'd prefer. I'm not prone to violence, though. Others might be, that doesn't mean I can tell them what to do or how to act. Anyways, back to that evidence you were to present? Or, is it safe to assume (as in many of your threads) you have nothing to present but an empty opinion?
 
zgoldsmith23 said:
Either one. Whichever I'd prefer. I'm not prone to violence, though. Others might be, that doesn't mean I can tell them what to do or how to act. Anyways, back to that evidence you were to present? Or, is it safe to assume (as in many of your threads) you have nothing to present but an empty opinion?
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If you are that obtuse about right and wrong I'm just glad I'm not your neighbor.
 
Very interesting topic ... and no doubt I believe I was strongly shaped by the memes I came across in my life. Certainly when it comes to worldview, basic values and especially political opinions.

But I don't think it's an inevitable fate. It's not certain that you will hold certain values or political opinions, just because you grew up in a certain social environment, culture and with certain influences. Because once you've recognized that, you can begin questioning your core believes, and moreso the believes that are less hard-wired, become open for good alien arguments and use your reason to modify your positions. But of course, many people don't do that ... which makes sense, because there something to the "never change a running system" argument. ;)

I don't believe genetics plays a direct role when it comes to values or political opinions, but probably a very significant indirect role... as intelligence, certain motorical skills, and inclination to certain emotions (anger control, a tendency to easily feel threatened or calmer, capacity for empathy and so on) probably depend to a good part on genetics. So I guess people who feel more easily threatened than others will probably prefer political opinions that emphasize security and safety, while those who are very empathic probably tend to reject policies they feel hurt people, deserved or underserved.

Or it even has the opposite effect, as such people maybe realize their weaknesses, i.e. kids with anger control problems are often taught early on that their behavior is unacceptable, and will thatfore condemn the use of violence when others do it, because that's exactly what they've learnt to hate and fear in themselves (hey Lizzie *wink*, I read parts of that book already! ;) )
 
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sawyerloggingon said:
If you are that obtuse about right and wrong I'm just glad I'm not your neighbor.
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If you're obtuse enough to claim objectivity when you have no evidence to present, I have a bridge I want to sell you.
 
lizzie said:
I have become that way to a certain extent. I know that I am a dinosaur relative to many people, and I know that the world will move in the direction dictated by emotion, rather than reason, since so many people function more on an emotional plane, than a rational and thoughtful one. The one issue that I am still somewhat passionate about is gun rights, because it's the only that even has a chance of insuring the rest.
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While I agree gun rights are important, I also think the Founders got the order of importance correct. Without the 1st Amendment, where does any other idea get a foothold at all? I mean, would your stance on guns and gun control even matter if no one could talk about it and it was a sin (illegal) - not a sin to own guns, a sin to even talk about them, form groups about them, and anything else the Priests came up with?
 
MoSurveyor said:
While I agree gun rights are important, I also think the Founders got the order of importance correct. Without the 1st Amendment, where does any other idea get a foothold at all? I mean, would your stance on guns and gun control even matter if no one could talk about it and it was a sin (illegal) - not a sin to own guns, a sin to even talk about them, form groups about them, and anything else the Priests came up with?
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As I'm not American, I have troubles understanding the strong emotions many Americans seem to have about guns. I'm sure that's because of the attitudes and memes I came across in my life over here.

The "private guns make sure there is freedom" arguments sounds totally naive to me. A couple of militias with handguns can never stand a fight against an entire regime that controls the army. On the other side, I'm sure there will always be enough nuts that believe the time has come the government has allegedly become tyrannic, although that opinion is ridiculous, and go on a killing spree or forming militias, believing they defend "freedom", while they're in reality just fighting for their delusional ideologies.

In Weimar Germany, the government was actually more freedom-loving and democratic than the people. And that government failed in part because too many enemies of freedom, a right-wing and left-wing mob, had too many guns ... which is why there were several attempts for putsch or revolution. The Republic failed because the democratic-republican government did not defend itself sufficiently against the armed people.

But maybe that's because I have the German people in mind. Don't know if justified or not, but I don't really trust my people to realize when the time has come to revolt, or to fight for the right cause. Maybe that's unfair, because Germans are better today than I cautiously assume. And maybe the American people is indeed different.

And then, there is the simple equation in my mind that when you want to reduce fatalities due to gun crime or accidents, it's a no-brainer to give incentives to reduce the number of guns in private hands. A restriction on private gun ownership will reduce (not eliminate) the number of guns in private hands, and fewer guns in private hands will reduce the number of gun-related fatalities. It will not eliminate them, as there will still be illegal guns, but probably reduce them significantly. And it probably won't reduce violent crimes either, but it will reduce fatal injuries when people use knives or fists instead of guns. Sounds all pretty obvious ...?

On the other side, I understand the situation is a bit different in Germany and many American regions. Germany has a much higher population density. When I have a problem, I can just call the police and it will arrive in 5 minutes. But when you're living in a very rural region in America, it's well possible it would take the police hours to arrive. In that case, it absolutely makes sense to allow guns for self-defense, IMO. Not even counting problems with wildlife in some rural regions, such as bears or wolves or so.
 
German guy said:
The "private guns make sure there is freedom" arguments sounds totally naive to me. A couple of militias with handguns can never stand a fight against an entire regime that controls the army. On the other side, I'm sure there will always be enough nuts that believe the time has come the government has allegedly become tyrannic, although that opinion is ridiculous, and go on a killing spree or forming militias, believing they defend "freedom", while they're in reality just fighting for their delusional ideologies.
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A lot of people that are pro-gun, like me, also think it's a little odd. Some people are fearful and react to that fear by gathering more physical force. Others choose a different path.


German guy said:
On the other side, I understand the situation is a bit different in Germany and many American regions. Germany has a much higher population density. When I have a problem, I can just call the police and it will arrive in 5 minutes. But when you're living in a very rural region in America, it's well possible it would take the police hours to arrive. In that case, it absolutely makes sense to allow guns for self-defense, IMO. Not even counting problems with wildlife in some rural regions, such as bears or wolves or so.
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It's not just the population density and defense from natural predators. There are a LOT of people that live in cities that hunt, for example, and many like shooting guns for fun, too. Personally, I'm more of an explosives kinda' guy. I've always loved playing with fireworks. :D

Also, the car is more prevalent in America than Europe, which often puts us in places that are isolated, even inside a city. It's pretty common to be the only person in a parking lot at 10 PM using an ATM machine. Sure there may be a whole street full of cars just 15 meters away but they're zooming by at 60 KPH intent upon their destination. They're not looking around at the scenery or paying any attention to you getting money from the ATM - or they guy maybe hiding in the shadows getting ready to take your money and your car. Me? I don't worry about it too much. There are enough things in life to consider without invoking imaginary enemies.
 
Goshin said:
The question is somewhat meaningless, in that we are all affected by our environment, our upbringing, our our genetics, our education, our society, the times we live in, etc etc. To speculate on what we might believe if we were tabula-rasa (a dubious concept itself) in a societal vaccuum is a pointless exercise, as no human grows up that way.

For instance, since you mentioned guns... I grew up in a rural household where guns for hunting, sport and defense were an everyday part of life. I first started shooting at age 5. I took it for granted... I was in my teens before I truly realized that people who literally hated guns were not some tiny lunatic fringe hiding in a cave somewhere, and I found the notion that there were millions of people like that astonishing and baffling... as baffling as you might consider people who hated bicycles, screwdrivers and power-saws.

In college I encountered some of these mythical creatures, people who were actually anti-gun who could articulate their reasons in some fashion. Intrigued, I began to wonder if perhaps that which I'd grown up taking for granted might actually be wrong.... I embarked on a lengthy study, reading several books and consulting such stats and data as were available in pre-Internet times, genuinely seeking to determine where the truth lay.

I will leave the revelation of what conclusion I came to as an intellectual exercise for the student. :)

My intellectual conclusions were tempered and tested during the years following, both the time I spent in Law Enforcement, and other incidents including the murder of a dear friend and losing several less-dear friends and acquaintances to violence; and a couple of incidents I barely survived.

Will a person who knows nothing of the existence of snakes, think to wear sturdy high boots in rattler territory? No. Our environment affects what we see as necessary caution.


Something similar regarding religion. Grew up in a far-right fundamentalist "Evangelical" church (parents were not as far right as the church but that's another story). Questioned most of what I believed from 19-22. Reaffirmed my faith in Christianity at 22, albeit with a considerably more tolerant viewpoint on moral/cultural issues than my old preacher would have approved of.


Politics? My parents were JFK Democrats and Reagan Republicans, fairly conservative but not rabid about it. My sisters were hippies, and ranged from radical far-left to apathetic. The rest of my family varied also. My journey to get where I am today (independent centrist, leaning mostly center-right) was a long one, passing through the range of conservative and libertarian philosophies, including a brief flirtation with anarchy and a short affair with authoritarianism, and a half-nod to certain center-left economic policies.


Certainly I was influenced by my family, friends, teachers, education, environment, experiences... everyone is. But there were intellectual processes ongoing throughout it all. Sapience means an opportunity to think about things and CHOOSE... and I certainly did some thinking and made some choices along the way.
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It's very interesting to read about your background. It's indeed interesting how it shapes us, and where we escape it after all.

My environment when I grew up was very different to your's. (West-)Berlin was a stronghold for "alternatives" of all kind, as people here were not drafted during the Cold War, so many pacifists moved here to escape service. It had also been a focal point for the student protests of 1968. In elementary school, there were maybe 2 or 3 pupils out of 80 in my year who said they believe in God (son of a priest and his friend), and they were ridiculed by the others like the children who still believed in Santa Claus.

My parents were/are center-left people (my mother farther left in her ideology, but less in her attitude) with upper-middle class university background. They sent me to a kindergarten run by the Max-Planck-Institute (a major private research institute), so grew up among kids of intellectuals from many different countries.

So it was not surprising that when I reached a certain age, I would parrot much of the memes my environment provided: I developed certain leftist ideas, at some point read a little Marx, and became kind of a "vulgar" Marxist -- especially thanks to the father of my best buddy in high school, who used to be a total ideologue in the revolt of 1968 (he was one of those guys who were right then and have never erred ever since). I'd be totally convinced I was right and that people who disagree are an "enemy". And it was paradox that this ideology, although it was totally mainstream in my environment, would even make me believe my opinion was a "rebellion" against "the mainstream". Te-hehe.

Fortunately, I grew out of that at some point. I didn't change 180 degree, but moved much more into the center and dropped Marx, embracing our republican system. But I still held many pacifist ideas, also anti-American clichés. So after protesting against the Iraq war in 2003, I started debating with Americans online. And that changed me a lot. They showed me that my image of them had been wrong and silly ... that they were well-meaning people with no bad intentions, although they disagreed with me. Probably it was the first time I actually bothered really examining and debating alien ideas thoroughly. Soon I realized that many arguments they had were even better than mine.

And the more I learnt about differences in ideology and particular stances, I noticed certain similarities behind it. For example, as surprising as it sounds... I have the impression German far-leftists and American libertarians tend to have a similar character (of course there are always exception): Both are often very intelligent, but more focused on ideological theory than common sense, not really "rooted". Both are idealistic and think their ideology will improve, if not liberate the world with a certain zeal. And both are similarly isolated by the mainstream and pissed off by it. Yet their ideologies are algebraic signs reversed.

The most rebellious decision I took so far was joining my religious community. There is no better way to irritate the mainstream here in Berlin than by doing that. People take it for granted you're atheist. They're constantly posting Dawkins quotes and so on, even feel they're somehow "rebellious" against "the mainstream", while in reality, being atheist is about as original in Berlin as being Jewish in Israel. And many say they're proud on being "tolerant" ... yeah right, unless they meet someone who does something they really don't have on their screen.

But why am I talking so much ... guess I just enjoy sharing it. Thanks again for your story!
 
German guy said:
The most rebellious decision I took so far was joining my religious community. There is no better way to irritate the mainstream here in Berlin than by doing that. People take it for granted you're atheist. They're constantly posting Dawkins quotes and so on, even feel they're somehow "rebellious" against "the mainstream", while in reality, being atheist is about as original in Berlin as being Jewish in Israel. And many say they're proud on being "tolerant" ... yeah right, unless they meet someone who does something they really don't have on their screen.
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I guess that when I visit Germany, I should keep my mouth shut about religion. :lol:
 
lizzie said:
I guess that when I visit Germany, I should keep my mouth shut about religion. :lol:
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Just say you're Muslim, then it's fine. Because immigrants are oppressed, and the oppressed are always right. ;)

Seriously though, I think in many other parts of Germany, religion is rather normal. Sure, the number of regular churchgoers is down to ca. 10% IIRC, but around 66% of the Germans still identify as Christians (although many of them rather because of tradition than conviction, and most of them just as "two day Christians" -- going to church only on Easter and Christmas).
 
German guy said:
It's very interesting to read about your background. It's indeed interesting how it shapes us, and where we escape it after all.

My environment when I grew up was very different to your's. (West-)Berlin was a stronghold for "alternatives" of all kind, as people here were not drafted during the Cold War, so many pacifists moved here to escape service. It had also been a focal point for the student protests of 1968. In elementary school, there were maybe 2 or 3 pupils out of 80 in my year who said they believe in God (son of a priest and his friend), and they were ridiculed by the others like the children who still believed in Santa Claus.

My parents were/are center-left people (my mother farther left in her ideology, but less in her attitude) with upper-middle class university background. They sent me to a kindergarten run by the Max-Planck-Institute (a major private research institute), so grew up among kids of intellectuals from many different countries.

So it was not surprising that when I reached a certain age, I would parrot much of the memes my environment provided: I developed certain leftist ideas, at some point read a little Marx, and became kind of a "vulgar" Marxist -- especially thanks to the father of my best buddy in high school, who used to be a total ideologue in the revolt of 1968 (he was one of those guys who were right then and have never erred ever since). I'd be totally convinced I was right and that people who disagree are an "enemy". And it was paradox that this ideology, although it was totally mainstream in my environment, would even make me believe my opinion was a "rebellion" against "the mainstream". Te-hehe.

Fortunately, I grew out of that at some point. I didn't change 180 degree, but moved much more into the center and dropped Marx, embracing our republican system. But I still held many pacifist ideas, also anti-American clichés. So after protesting against the Iraq war in 2003, I started debating with Americans online. And that changed me a lot. They showed me that my image of them had been wrong and silly ... that they were well-meaning people with no bad intentions, although they disagreed with me. Probably it was the first time I actually bothered really examining and debating alien ideas thoroughly. Soon I realized that many arguments they had were even better than mine.

And the more I learnt about differences in ideology and particular stances, I noticed certain similarities behind it. For example, as surprising as it sounds... I have the impression German far-leftists and American libertarians tend to have a similar character (of course there are always exception): Both are often very intelligent, but more focused on ideological theory than common sense, not really "rooted". Both are idealistic and think their ideology will improve, if not liberate the world with a certain zeal. And both are similarly isolated by the mainstream and pissed off by it. Yet their ideologies are algebraic signs reversed.

The most rebellious decision I took so far was joining my religious community. There is no better way to irritate the mainstream here in Berlin than by doing that. People take it for granted you're atheist. They're constantly posting Dawkins quotes and so on, even feel they're somehow "rebellious" against "the mainstream", while in reality, being atheist is about as original in Berlin as being Jewish in Israel. And many say they're proud on being "tolerant" ... yeah right, unless they meet someone who does something they really don't have on their screen.

But why am I talking so much ... guess I just enjoy sharing it. Thanks again for your story!
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That is pretty fascinating, GermanGuy... and about as polar opposite to the environment of my youth as I can imagine while still remaining in the West. "Alien" as you say.

While things have changed a lot around here, we're still "far right reactionaries" by Berlin standards. :)
 
Goshin said:
That is pretty fascinating, GermanGuy... and about as polar opposite to the environment of my youth as I can imagine while still remaining in the West. "Alien" as you say.

While things have changed a lot around here, we're still "far right reactionaries" by Berlin standards. :)
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Well, to be fair, I also met Americans who even topped our "mainstream-leftism", like a very nice fellow from California. Maybe Berlin is just the Los Angeles of Germany (that was the hippie stronghold back then, wasn't it?). :D

Anyway, I find it interesting that our backgrounds are so different, yet I always enjoy your postings and think there is a lot of "heart" and common sense in your opinions. We may not always agree, but I always have the impression you have your heart on the right side.
 
There's a saying I picked up somewhere along the way that I think sort of fits to the spirit of this topic.

One would study biology to become a biologist, study chemistry to become a chemist, and theology to become an atheist.

Now further study takes you back to religion but the point of all this I suppose is yes, you must look at what you believe, question why you believe it, examine if what you believe is well, believable and point out and try to resolve any contradictions you come across. This is an evolving process and it is fundamental to always be questioning. Without doubt there is no faith. Eventually things will settle down and certain questions will be resolved (at least enough to your liking) as you continue along your journey adding new information, disregarding old prejudices and myths, all in the effort to discover your ultimate reality.

To answer your thread's question directly, Yes, I believe what I believe until I no longer believe it.
 
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