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To be, or not to be

I remember that saying. Around the same time as the book "Your Okay, I'm Okay"? A lot of deep thinkers came out of the 60's hippy movement. It was a time when West meets East philosophy was melding. I remember when our generation was encouraged to strive into the arts, classics and things of culture. Our parents pushed us to endeavor, whereas the last couple of generations are science literate but superficial on a social level.

Actually, I think he may have coined it before the 60's but it became popular around that time

One of Campbell's themes is that in spite of the progress we have made, our society neglects to develop our spiritual "skills". He talks a bit about this here:

Joseph Campbell The Way Of Myth (part1) - Spiritual Identity & its reference - YouTube
 
If I remember correctly, the guy who wrote "The Road Less Traveled" said, in one of his books, that it should actually have been "You're not okay. I'm not okay. But it's Okay". :lol:

That's funny. :lamo

I don't know much about the book, except that it actually has a part that says,

The phrase I'm OK, You're OK is one of four "life positions" that each of us may take. The four positions are:

1 I'm Not OK, You're OK
2 I'm Not OK, You're Not OK
3 I'm OK, You're Not OK
4 I'm OK, You're OK

On it's face the statement alone sounds kind of like an acceptance of each other and not trying to change or control the other. That's sort of my philosophy with dealing with others. Though I doubt that's what the book is about.
 
Actually, I think he may have coined it before the 60's but it became popular around that time

One of Campbell's themes is that in spite of the progress we have made, our society neglects to develop our spiritual "skills". He talks a bit about this here:

Joseph Campbell The Way Of Myth (part1) - Spiritual Identity & its reference - YouTube

This guy see's thru the crap. I thought I was the only one who realized how obsessed entertainment is with violence. It's not even in context as a part of life but in a totally non realistic fantasy, like a roller coaster ride. You'd think after seeing how many soldiers come back all twisted up mentally from experiencing real death, maiming and suffering that they'd catch on. But one of the most frustrating things is that you can't give your experiences and wisdom to anyone else. They have to live it.

Like everyone discounts all historical, spiritual belief systems as complete mythology but much of it is an accumulation of the human thought processes, including philosophy and wisdom.
 
This famous question from Shakespeare has a particular meaning to me. I'll explain mine, then please explain it's meaning to you?

We struggle all our lives for purpose, meaning, hope and love. The most enduring being hope and love and whether we will care enough to fight for it or give up. The worst deception one can make is to themselves about what's important. Life is bigger than just ourselves and if we can live that way keeping our egos in check, I believe we're happier. It's no easy task though in sharing your existence.

Why some have it seemingly so different and more or less difficult than others is probably circumstantial. Naturally, as the poem suggests we fear death if nothing else for being the ultimate unknown and possibly worse than the hardships of our current life. But being a part of the wonder of it all isn't always enough and we need the fear to keep us. Life makes us a promise in our youth that one day it will fulfill again, "you'll learn to forgive and trust me."


William Shakespeare - To be, or not to be (from Hamlet 3/1)

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The Heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; Aye, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes Calamity of so long life:
For who would bear the Whips and Scorns of time,
The Oppressor's wrong, the proud man's Contumely,
The pangs of disprized Love, the Law’s delay,
The insolence of Office, and the Spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his Quietus make
With a bare Bodkin? Who would Fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered Country, from whose bourn
No Traveller returns, Puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we know not of.
Thus Conscience does make Cowards of us all,
And thus the Native hue of Resolution
Is sicklied o'er, with the pale cast of Thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment,
With this regard their Currents turn awry,
And lose the name of Action. Soft you now,
The fair Ophelia? Nymph, in thy Orisons
Be all my sins remembered.

Not is not a opposition. And it matters not a all what you can be, because that is the only option.
 
But one of the most frustrating things is that you can't give your experiences and wisdom to anyone else. They have to live it.

Like everyone discounts all historical, spiritual belief systems as complete mythology but much of it is an accumulation of the human thought processes, including philosophy and wisdom.

Campbell believed that spiritual wisdom could be transmitted through myths and the rituals that expressed the spiritual meanings that lie behind the myth (the hero's mask)

Joseph Campbell--On Becoming an Adult - YouTube
 
Not is not a opposition. And it matters not a all what you can be, because that is the only option.


I never really thought about this but you're right. In relation to yourself there is no NOT being by it's very nature. There is only 'to be' because you would not be aware of non existence. Good insight, I'm impressed. :)

I know when we're asleep we're in a quasi non existent state of being because we're unaware and unconscious. But lately I've actually told myself I was dreaming in a dream because it was something I wouldn't do and kind of pissed me off. It was an act of sheer will power but it amazed me that I did it a few times. I don't like dreams where I'm doing stuff that never occurs to me in my conscious state. It's bad enough how weird dreams are anyway. Sorry I digressed.
 
Campbell believed that spiritual wisdom could be transmitted through myths and the rituals that expressed the spiritual meanings that lie behind the myth (the hero's mask)

Joseph Campbell--On Becoming an Adult - YouTube

There's a point when your parents and society begin to expect you to be held accountable. That's a difficult transition going from a child mind, where the world seems magical and mystical to the hardcore facts of taking care of your person. Getting a job, apartment, car, insurance, cooking, shopping, cleaning, paying bills, medical/dental appts, relationships, etc.

When I was younger and studying religions and philosophies, I realized that Good & Evil are only words that we imbue with mythical power. We give them a duality in nature that has them opposing each other in such a way that it creates a cognitive dissonance.

Good is simply information or knowledge that is true and correct and evil is basically ignorance and self deception based on emotional immaturity. We're all guilty of being ignorant about some things because we don't have perfect knowledge. And trying to be excessively good is more about an imbalanced ego than really accomplishing anything intelligent. Realistically we can only physically and mentally do so much in life and most of that is taking care of ourselves and family.

Being someone who has gained a little character, modesty, compassion, responsibility, maturity, common sense and general knowledge is about the best you can hope to achieve in this world.
 
I never really thought about this but you're right. In relation to yourself there is no NOT being by it's very nature. There is only 'to be' because you would not be aware of non existence. Good insight, I'm impressed. :)

I know when we're asleep we're in a quasi non existent state of being because we're unaware and unconscious. But lately I've actually told myself I was dreaming in a dream because it was something I wouldn't do and kind of pissed me off. It was an act of sheer will power but it amazed me that I did it a few times. I don't like dreams where I'm doing stuff that never occurs to me in my conscious state. It's bad enough how weird dreams are anyway. Sorry I digressed.



WHat you described is known as vivid dreams. I have severe narcolepsy and vivid dreams are a symptom so I have vivid dreams just about every night.
 
WHat you described is known as vivid dreams. I have severe narcolepsy and vivid dreams are a symptom so I have vivid dreams just about every night.

I really dislike vivid dreams that I remember well or semi-nightmares, except when they're good ones where I can fly. I used to get sleep paralysis once in awhile, which was terrifying. The last time I got it I growled like a dog because it made me mad instead of scared and it never happened again...lol
 
I really dislike vivid dreams that I remember well or semi-nightmares, except when they're good ones where I can fly. I used to get sleep paralysis once in awhile, which was terrifying. The last time I got it I growled like a dog because it made me mad instead of scared and it never happened again...lol

I've had sleep paralysis when I was younger

It's associated with anxiety and possibly depression.
 
The last couple of hours I've been thinking of and trying to not think of the one moment in my life where I, for a second, had given up. But someone else's life was in my care and so two lives at that moment were being decided. It seemed both were over anyway and it only a choice of quickly or slowly, painlessly or horribly. But it was not a complete certainty. Instead, the question was more pain over painless death all for a long shot at life. To go on thru pain - for the sake of going on.

That was a long time ago. Sometimes it seems almost an eternity. The human brain can forget things. And it never forgets anything either. Whether it would be a good thing or a terrible one if the brain had a "file delete" button is a complex question.

"Fighting to a known death" is only rational if death from that adversary will certainly come anyway with pain in-between being the only difference. Otherwise it makes no sense. "Live to fight another day."

I don't know about what is "noble." That's really way over my head. But we all suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, some of us more than others. Escape in death? Death is only a valid option of escape if death will come regardless and then you are exercising the only remaining freedom, the freedom to chose how by denying that to the adversary who will otherwise end it cruelly - whether by assault or disease or health degradation.
 
I've had sleep paralysis when I was younger

It's associated with anxiety and possibly depression.

I had a very real nightmare once that I was in a dark motel room when someone was pounding on the door. I ran to answer it when this 7ft tall dark being in a cape and hood bursts thru and jumps on top of my chest with inhuman strength. It was trying to rip my heart out with it's bare hand when I was jolted awake. Right in the center of my chest was a pain and my own hands were nowhere near that spot.
 
The last couple of hours I've been thinking of and trying to not think of the one moment in my life where I, for a second, had given up. But someone else's life was in my care and so two lives at that moment were being decided. It seemed both were over anyway and it only a choice of quickly or slowly, painlessly or horribly. But it was not a complete certainty. Instead, the question was more pain over painless death all for a long shot at life. To go on thru pain - for the sake of going on.

That was a long time ago. Sometimes it seems almost an eternity. The human brain can forget things. And it never forgets anything either. Whether it would be a good thing or a terrible one if the brain had a "file delete" button is a complex question.

"Fighting to a known death" is only rational if death from that adversary will certainly come anyway with pain in-between being the only difference. Otherwise it makes no sense. "Live to fight another day."

I don't know about what is "noble." That's really way over my head. But we all suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, some of us more than others. Escape in death? Death is only a valid option of escape if death will come regardless and then you are exercising the only remaining freedom, the freedom to chose how by denying that to the adversary who will otherwise end it cruelly - whether by assault or disease or health degradation.

I doubt few make all the way thru life without one of those moments of doubt (not to be). Though we live in the moment our lives are a continuation of experiences and "not to be" is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
 
I doubt few make all the way thru life without one of those moments of doubt (not to be). Though we live in the moment our lives are a continuation of experiences and "not to be" is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

There are so many psychological questions that I think factor in very individually. For example, does "emotional" pain count as pain? What is the person's normal level of slings and arrows in life?

What is the norm for a person? If all a person has ever known is pain, suffering, and hopelessness, that then is the norm. If slavery is a social norm a person is born into, is it easier to live with as opposed to a free person made a slave?

What can a person endure? IF you were a 90 year old Jews living well in NYC, but your whole family murdered in the Holocaust you endured the horrors of the concentration camp, one of the few to do so and the struggles after that too - and you were taken back in time to the moment you saw the SS troops arriving at your house... would you go thru it? Or would you - knowing what is coming - quickly have your family (which you know will suffer terribly and then certainly die) and yourself quickly do your own version of Masada? Yet if you do, anything good you were for others (and yourself) is lost.

I would think a person would either have to be ignorant about what is coming OR see hope on the other side of horror, unless horror was already just a norm in life.
 
There are so many psychological questions that I think factor in very individually. For example, does "emotional" pain count as pain? What is the person's normal level of slings and arrows in life?

What is the norm for a person? If all a person has ever known is pain, suffering, and hopelessness, that then is the norm. If slavery is a social norm a person is born into, is it easier to live with as opposed to a free person made a slave?

What can a person endure? IF you were a 90 year old Jews living well in NYC, but your whole family murdered in the Holocaust you endured the horrors of the concentration camp, one of the few to do so and the struggles after that too - and you were taken back in time to the moment you saw the SS troops arriving at your house... would you go thru it? Or would you - knowing what is coming - quickly have your family (which you know will suffer terribly and then certainly die) and yourself quickly do your own version of Masada? Yet if you do, anything good you were for others (and yourself) is lost.

I would think a person would either have to be ignorant about what is coming OR see hope on the other side of horror, unless horror was already just a norm in life.

Those are individual considerations and why we have free will. It's often relative to perception but there are genetic and circumstantial factors that affect peoples outcomes. You can help make others happy but your main priority is to self first.
 
If I remember correctly, the guy who wrote "The Road Less Traveled" said, in one of his books, that it should actually have been "You're not okay. I'm not okay. But it's Okay". :lol:

You're referring to Dr. M. Scott Peck (psychiatrist), now deceased. His book that was transformational for me was The People of the Lie. It's definitely not a "feel-good" read the way The Road Less Traveled is because it deals with evil and how ordinary it can be, but it's definitely worth the read.
 
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