• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

My question to William Lane Craig

Amadeus

Amadeus

Chews the Cud
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
6,081
Reaction score
3,216
Location
Benghazi
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
As per tosca1's advice, I went to William Lane Craig's website and asked him the following question:

Hello,

My question is a simple one. If God is perfect, why does he engage in behaviour that appears imperfect to humans? For example, His original solution to rampant sin was to commit genocide (even wiping out most of the animals on Earth). When that failed, and humans started acting sinful again, he committed and/or ordered more genocide -- even infanticide (surely infants are without sin). Finally, he decided to reincarnate himself as a Jew and be crucified -- and require that everyone believed in Him to be absolved of sin. With infinite power at His disposal, was this really the best solution He could come up with?

While I am not a believer, I would like to engage in a healthy discussion and try to understand your viewpoint. I have studied your arguments, and they are predicated on the belief that God is a perfect being. Indeed, I would expect nothing less than perfection from the Almighty.

Thanks,
Amadeus
 
Amadeus said:
While I am not a believer, I would like to engage in a healthy discussion and try to understand your viewpoint. I have studied your arguments, and they are predicated on the belief that God is a perfect being. Indeed, I would expect nothing less than perfection from the Almighty.

Thanks,
Amadeus
Click to expand...

It all depends on one's idea of what perfection is, and what God is. I don't personally expect perfection, as the term is generally used. My perception of God is one of what I can best describe as creative energy and force, rather than a Grandpa with a white beard. ;)
 
lizzie said:
It all depends on one's idea of what perfection is, and what God is. I don't personally expect perfection, as the term is generally used. My perception of God is one of what I can best describe as creative energy and force, rather than a Grandpa with a white beard. ;)
Click to expand...

Hi lizzie,

The person in question (Craig) has a very narrow definition of God, excluding pretty much all other interpretations but his own. I've geared the question specifically to him, not so much for people who believe in a general or ambiguous concept of God (as I think you do).
 
Amadeus said:
Hi lizzie,

The person in question (Craig) has a very narrow definition of God, excluding pretty much all other interpretations but his own. I've geared the question specifically to him, not so much for people who believe in a general or ambiguous concept of God (as I think you do).
Click to expand...

Well, I find that if you try to narrow God down into a pigeonhole, it becomes a pretty ineffective concept.
 
lizzie said:
Well, I find that if you try to narrow God down into a pigeonhole, it becomes a pretty ineffective concept.
Click to expand...

At the same time if you generalize God as just some creative force, is it really accurate to be using the word God? Kind of works both ways. Too ambiguous and I think it doesn't deserve the title "God" and too specific and I think you're doing yourself a disservice, as you said earlier.
 
roughdraft274 said:
At the same time if you generalize God as just some creative force, is it really accurate to be using the word God? Kind of works both ways. Too ambiguous and I think it doesn't deserve the title "God" and too specific and I think you're doing yourself a disservice, as you said earlier.
Click to expand...

To me, God is a very pervasive concept. It is what moves and animates people and their actions. It is the source of energy for expression. Iow, it is something that we are a part of, as we are expressions of it. Hope that makes sense.
 
lizzie said:
To me, God is a very pervasive concept. It is what moves and animates people and their actions. It is the source of energy for expression. Iow, it is something that we are a part of, as we are expressions of it. Hope that makes sense.
Click to expand...
I'm not going to argue about it, it's only a matter of opinion, and I get what you're saying, it's just that I'd hesitate to refer to something like that as God. It seems to only obfuscate the issue.

Much like the quote in your signature:

"God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
-C G Jung
Click to expand...

Well you can refer to that stuff as God, but I think you're having to twist the word "god" in order to do so.
 
I think that any version of God that has a personality (that we can define) must be inherently flawed. A personality is a combination of positive and negative traits, and many other things that can only be found within an imperfect entity.

To me, God would have to be so far beyond human attributes that we could not recognize him, much less worship him. A true God would not care where we stick our genitalia, or what kind of foods we eat. Those characteristics are cartoonish. They are a caricature of God.
 
roughdraft274 said:
I'm not going to argue about it, it's only a matter of opinion, and I get what you're saying, it's just that I'd hesitate to refer to something like that as God. It seems to only obfuscate the issue.

Much like the quote in your signature:



Well you can refer to that stuff as God, but I think you're having to twist the word "god" in order to do so.
Click to expand...

Well, really I'm not having to twist anything, as it is close to what my perception of God is. I may be twisting the manner in which you see it, but that really doesn't matter, or at least it shouldn't matter to you.
 
By the way, Amadeus was taken, so I chose to use my real name. If Craig responds, you will see it.
 
Amadeus said:
I think that any version of God that has a personality (that we can define) must be inherently flawed. A personality is a combination of positive and negative traits, and many other things that can only be found within an imperfect entity.

To me, God would have to be so far beyond human attributes that we could not recognize him, much less worship him. A true God would not care where we stick our genitalia, or what kind of foods we eat. Those characteristics are cartoonish. They are a caricature of God.
Click to expand...

To the bolded: it again goes back to one's perception. Does God necessarily have to be "good" in human terms? Is our own definition of good and bad in error, when it comes to conceptualization of what God may be?
 
lizzie said:
Well, really I'm not having to twist anything, as it is close to what my perception of God is. I may be twisting the manner in which you see it, but that really doesn't matter, or at least it shouldn't matter to you.
Click to expand...

No, I'm not saying it matters. But I'd say your twisting the word from it's common usage. Granted that's just my perspective of it's common usage.
 
Amadeus said:
A true God would not care where we stick our genitalia, or what kind of foods we eat. Those characteristics are cartoonish. They are a caricature of God.
Click to expand...
You are trying to make God in your own image and likeness.
 
lizzie said:
To the bolded: it again goes back to one's perception. Does God necessarily have to be "good" in human terms? Is our own definition of good and bad in error, when it comes to conceptualization of what God may be?
Click to expand...

It doesn't seem like good or bad would apply to God. Is it evil for a star to explode (wiping out a solar system), or to have two galaxies collide (such as the Milky Way and the Andromeda galaxy, eventually)? I think God would have to be an indifferent entity.

Sentience itself is imperfection. The ability to think for yourself means that you are uncertain of the outcome. How can God make decisions if he knows everything and is everywhere? There's something contradictory in total omnipotence.
 
Amadeus said:
It doesn't seem like good or bad would apply to God. Is it evil for a star to explode (wiping out a solar system), or to have two galaxies collide (such as the Milky Way and the Andromeda galaxy, eventually)? I think God would have to be an indifferent entity.

Sentience itself is imperfection. The ability to think for yourself means that you are uncertain of the outcome. How can God make decisions if he knows everything and is everywhere? There's something contradictory in total omnipotence.
Click to expand...

The bolded is the reason that I think our own perceptions of perfection may be somewhat flawed.
 
lizzie said:
The bolded is the reason that I think our own perceptions of perfection may be somewhat flawed.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I'm actually trying to separate my liberal ideal of perfection from God. I have to look at God from the perspective of a pan-dimensional creator who may be responsible for the creation and destruction of universes. It doesn't seem like morality would be first on his agenda. He's probably balancing quantum mechanics in the 32nd Dimension, or something equally beyond our comprehension.
 
Amadeus said:
I agree, but I'm actually trying to separate my liberal ideal of perfection from God. I have to look at God from the perspective of a pan-dimensional creator who may be responsible for the creation and destruction of universes. It doesn't seem like morality would be first on his agenda. He's probably balancing quantum mechanics in the 32nd Dimension, or something equally beyond our comprehension.
Click to expand...

That again goes back to the question of what actual morality is.
 
Amadeus said:
As per tosca1's advice, I went to William Lane Craig's website and asked him the following question:

Hello,

My question is a simple one. If God is perfect, why does he engage in behaviour that appears imperfect to humans? For example, His original solution to rampant sin was to commit genocide (even wiping out most of the animals on Earth). When that failed, and humans started acting sinful again, he committed and/or ordered more genocide -- even infanticide (surely infants are without sin). Finally, he decided to reincarnate himself as a Jew and be crucified -- and require that everyone believed in Him to be absolved of sin. With infinite power at His disposal, was this really the best solution He could come up with?

While I am not a believer, I would like to engage in a healthy discussion and try to understand your viewpoint. I have studied your arguments, and they are predicated on the belief that God is a perfect being. Indeed, I would expect nothing less than perfection from the Almighty.

Thanks,
Amadeus
Click to expand...

:applaud

Please let us know his answer. Keep us abreast.
 
tosca1 said:
:applaud

Please let us know his answer. Keep us abreast.
Click to expand...

Hopefully he will post it publicly. I am not interested in an email discussion.
 
Amadeus said:
As per tosca1's advice, I went to William Lane Craig's website and asked him the following question:

Hello,

My question is a simple one. If God is perfect, why does he engage in behaviour that appears imperfect to humans? For example, His original solution to rampant sin was to commit genocide (even wiping out most of the animals on Earth). When that failed, and humans started acting sinful again, he committed and/or ordered more genocide -- even infanticide (surely infants are without sin). Finally, he decided to reincarnate himself as a Jew and be crucified -- and require that everyone believed in Him to be absolved of sin. With infinite power at His disposal, was this really the best solution He could come up with?

While I am not a believer, I would like to engage in a healthy discussion and try to understand your viewpoint. I have studied your arguments, and they are predicated on the belief that God is a perfect being. Indeed, I would expect nothing less than perfection from the Almighty.

Thanks,
Amadeus
Click to expand...

In Christianity (at least catholic)

Infants are not without sin. The original sin by Adam and Eve has caused all humanity to be born with sin. Which is why babies in the catholic system will be baptised after death if they were not done so before. In order to cleanse them, so they could go to heaven

(at least if I recall correctly, this is going by memory from 20 years ago
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
In Christianity (at least catholic)

Infants are not without sin. The original sin by Adam and Eve has caused all humanity to be born with sin.
Click to expand...

I hope Craig brings that up, because it is an example of collective punishment and unintelligent design. Why did God create a system whereby sin can be inherited?
 
Amadeus said:
I hope Craig brings that up, because it is an example of collective punishment and unintelligent design. Why did God create a system whereby sin can be inherited?
Click to expand...

It's just like my husband told me, some 15 or so years ago: If God made you the way you are, then why do you hate yourself? It took me years for that to sink into my hard head, but his point was perfectly made.
 
lizzie said:
It's just like my husband told me, some 15 or so years ago: If God made you the way you are, then why do you hate yourself? It took me years for that to sink into my hard head, but his point was perfectly made.
Click to expand...

This is a perfect example of the dangers of relativism. If God is not your standard, you have to find some other standard, one which is unlikely to be achieved and requires you to violate your basic nature, leading to unhappiness in the least.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom