Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Exist?

Re: Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Ex

MoSurveyor said:

You've phrased the situation incorrectly. The second person says "I experience that God does not exist" should more properly read "I do not experience God". It's impossible to say that you experience a non-existence, it's simply that you don't experience the existence at all, which in logic is a different statement.

Given the correct phrasing of the experience and given that both have no sensor errors, it's obvious that objectively God is not there. If he were there, then both would experience him instead of just one.

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So common sense eludes you for grammar issues . how can you stand the concept of texting or Facebook . You know what it means I know what it means . get to the actual issue .

Re: Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Ex

Un biased said:

So common sense eludes you for grammar issues . how can you stand the concept of texting or Facebook . You know what it means I know what it means . get to the actual issue .

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Logic is worthless if you start with erroneous assumptions. I corrected the error.


As to addressing the issue:
I did. You quoted the second paragraph so I presume you read it. What part don't you understand?

Re: Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Ex

MoSurveyor said:

Logic is worthless if you start with erroneous assumptions. I corrected the error.


As to addressing the issue:
I did. You quoted the second paragraph so I presume you read it. What part don't you understand?

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Nothing is black and white it is gray someone can be both logic in the human mind is very confusing it eludes people who do not understand that concept

Re: Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Ex

Un biased said:

Nothing is black and white it is gray someone can be both logic in the human mind is very confusing it eludes people who do not understand that concept

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Having encountered Ontologuy in more than one thread, I have no issue challenging his illogically worded statements then asking/demanding logical discussion of them.


The question was put forth as demanding a black/white answer.

Re: Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Ex

MoSurveyor said:

You've phrased the situation incorrectly. The second person says "I experience that God does not exist" should more properly read "I do not experience God".

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Yet many people say it thusly that "I experience that God does not exist" when they actually say "God does not exist" as when they say "God does not exist" how else could they conclude thusly except by their own experience in all of its facets?

"I experience that God does not exist" and "I do not experience God" are essentially the same statement ..

.. Unless, of course, God has something to do with this difference by his own actions in some way.

MoSurveyor said:

It's impossible to say that you experience a non-existence, it's simply that you don't experience the existence at all, which in logic is a different statement.

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If it's impossible to experience a non-existence, why do people so state when they say "God does not exist?"

By so stating they are affirming the non-existence of God, which, of course, is determined by their own experience.

Not experiencing the existence of God, could, yes, mean that God exists but that, for some reason, maybe unknown by the person attempting the experience, that person either doesn't experience God .. or doesn't know what it is that they are experiencing.

MoSurveyor said:

Given the correct phrasing of the experience and given that both have no sensor errors, it's obvious that objectively God is not there. If he were there, then both would experience him instead of just one.

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Based on your phrasing here, there are no criteria whatsoever to logically choose either over the other.

That you chose as you did makes me wonder if you, personally, think God does not exist.

Your choice here most certainly does imply that you think there are sensor errors in the person saying "I experience that God exists".

Again, is it not possible that one could have no malfunction in perceptive ability and still not detect God? After all, Radio receivers that function just fine may not have the frequency range to detect certain signals.

In the statements "I experience that God exists" and "God does not exist"/"I experience that God does not exist" spoken by two people, one of them is accurately presenting reality.

Which one, and why?

Re: Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Ex

Ontologuy said:

If it's impossible to experience a non-existence, why do people so state when they say "God does not exist?"

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They state that for the same reason that one might state that unicorns don't exist. No one has been able to provide any evidence that God exists. One can't say with 100% certainty that unicorns don't exist either. It's a matter of pragmatism.

Re: Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Ex

afr0byte said:

They state that for the same reason that one might state that unicorns don't exist. No one has been able to provide any evidence that God exists. One can't say with 100% certainty that unicorns don't exist either. It's a matter of pragmatism.

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Yes. As Bertrand Russell said, most atheists are, technically, actually agnostic. That is, they are agnsotic as to the existence of the Homeric gods as well as the Abrahamic one(s).

So "atheist" is perfectly feasible, albeit as a sort of shorthand.

Re: Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Ex

Ontologuy said:

Yet many people say it thusly that "I experience that God does not exist" when they actually say "God does not exist" as when they say "God does not exist" how else could they conclude thusly except by their own experience in all of its facets?

"I experience that God does not exist" and "I do not experience God" are essentially the same statement ..

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Obviously they are different. One is merely an observation, "I do not experience God." The other is a conclusion, "I experience God does not exist."

Ontologuy said:

If it's impossible to experience a non-existence, why do people so state when they say "God does not exist?"

By so stating they are affirming the non-existence of God, which, of course, is determined by their own experience.

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As noted above, that's not an experience, it's a conclusion.

Ontologuy said:

Not experiencing the existence of God, could, yes, mean that God exists but that, for some reason, maybe unknown by the person attempting the experience, that person either doesn't experience God .. or doesn't know what it is that they are experiencing.

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Let's break this down into two pieces for clarity:

1. "Not experiencing the existence of God, could, yes, mean" ... "that person ... doesn't experience God"
'A' does indeed equal 'A'. :lol:


2. "Not experiencing the existence of God, could, yes, mean" ... "[that person] doesn't know what it is that they are experiencing".
Possible but not provable.

Ontologuy said:

Based on your phrasing here, there are no criteria whatsoever to logically choose either over the other.

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Of course there is. The very definition of "objective" is that no one person or group of people are required to observe the phenomena. Since both did not experience the event then it is obviously not objective.

Ontologuy said:

That you chose as you did makes me wonder if you, personally, think God does not exist.

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I don't chase orbiting teapots.

Ontologuy said:

Your choice here most certainly does imply that you think there are sensor errors in the person saying "I experience that God exists".

Again, is it not possible that one could have no malfunction in perceptive ability and still not detect God? After all, Radio receivers that function just fine may not have the frequency range to detect certain signals.

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Your radio analogy is one possible reason one person may experience it and another may not. Another could be what you claimed above, that they actually experience the same event but have different labels for it. Or it could be that even though both of their senses are working correctly that they differ enough to account for the difference in observation - and note this can go both ways.

The person who claims he experienced god may be seeing something that really isn't there. People often do that, you know, it's part of our sensory systems. That's why, as our technology has advanced, we have come to learn that eye witness accounts are often the least accurate evidence. Prior to audio and video capture we had few other choices but today we know better because eye witnesses are often at odds with the captures and recordings. There are many possible reasons why they would experience different things at the same time but the fact remains that only those things they both experience are objective, anything else experienced by only one of them is subjective, by definition.

Ontologuy said:

In the statements "I experience that God exists" and "God does not exist"/"I experience that God does not exist" spoken by two people, one of them is accurately presenting reality.

Which one, and why?

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Again, you are trying to make the same logical mistake. "God does not exist" is NOT an observation, it's a conclusion. I'm sorry your education has not included this simple concept.

Re: Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Ex

Ontologuy said:

Who's right?

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The person who says that they refuse to accept an unsubstantiated claim.

Theists make unsubstantiated claims. Atheists do not. Their stance is to reject claims that are unsubstantiated.

There is also the common concept of strong atheism that posits that no gods exist, but that's a different philosophical question than the one you asked in your OP.

The answer to your OP is that atheists are always right, because theists can never substantiate their claims.

Re: Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Ex

The answer can be found on the tines of Hume's Fork.

A matter of fact vs. a relation of idea.

As a matter of fact, empirically verifiable, and tested, examined, measured --The existence of God is unprovable.*

As a relation of an idea, the matter is simple, yes, God does exist.

*As a side note, Godel's Incompleteness Theorem mathematically shows essentially that because something cannot be proven doesn't mean it isn't True. So as a relation of an idea God exists, and as a matter of fact, God can possibly exist.

Therefore, (oh wonderful therefore!) The person who emphatically states with all the certainty he can muster, that God doesn't exist, is wrong.

Re: Who's Right, The Person Who Says God Exists Or The Person Who Says God Doesn't Ex

Ontologuy said:

Who's right?

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That's trivial.

The person that refuses to accept unsubstantiated claims, is right.

Therefore all religious claims are false, therefore any rejection of religious claims is right, and true, and logically valid.