Why aren’t liberals more critical of Islam?

Paschendale said:

Nah. We just hate the way they keep trying to take away our rights and force their religion into schools. Other than that, we really don't care. If Islam were here trying to do the same thing, we'd be just as pissed at them, too.

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A lot of people don't want that, even some Christians. I'm sure, given the opportunity, Islam would try to do the same thing and maybe even using much worse methods. Now, I will wait patiently for the predictable history lesson. :mrgreen:

ChrisL said:

A lot of people don't want that, even some Christians. I'm sure, given the opportunity, Islam would try to do the same thing and maybe even using much worse methods. Now, I will wait patiently for the predictable history lesson. :mrgreen:

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No history lesson. If Islam tries, it will meet the same resistance. And I doubt anyone has ever suggested that American Christians (all ~200 million of them) act as a homogeneous group. Join us atheists in promoting a secular state where no one's religious beliefs are forced on others by law.

Paschendale said:

No history lesson. If Islam tries, it will meet the same resistance. And I doubt anyone has ever suggested that American Christians (all ~200 million of them) act as a homogeneous group. Join us atheists in promoting a secular state where no one's religious beliefs are forced on others by law.

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I do believe in a secular government. I've seen examples of such thinking on this forum, but it's not really that common that people want to push their religious views via government IMO.

ChrisL said:

I do believe in a secular government. I've seen examples of such thinking on this forum, but it's not really that common that people want to push their religious views via government IMO.

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Except in the areas of abortion, contraception, same sex marriage, science, medicine, education... and let's not forget the many times that religion has been invoked to justify racial oppression and subjugation of women.

Paschendale said:

Except in the areas of abortion, contraception, same sex marriage, science, medicine, education... and let's not forget the many times that religion has been invoked to justify racial oppression and subjugation of women.

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True, some people do want those things. I just don't see those people being the overwhelming majority. I think most people are more moderate about their religion and can see how government enforcing those things on behalf of religious beliefs can lead to big problems. I know plenty of religious people who don't agree with abortion (I don't either) but don't want to ban it because they can understand that sometimes it's unfortunately necessary, or at least perhaps the best decision depending on somebody's circumstances.

ChrisL said:

True, some people do want those things. I just don't see those people being the overwhelming majority. I think most people are more moderate about their religion and can see how government enforcing those things on behalf of religious beliefs can lead to big problems. I know plenty of religious people who don't agree with abortion (I don't either) but don't want to ban it because they can understand that sometimes it's unfortunately necessary, or at least perhaps the best decision depending on somebody's circumstances.

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Then join the atheists in keeping it legal! Let's present a united front against the radicals, and then we can enjoy the benefits of a government that neither promotes nor prevents religion. Our respective positions can then compete in the marketplace of ideas, and whoever is right will, I hope, be proven correct in time.

Paschendale said:

Then join the atheists in keeping it legal! Let's present a united front against the radicals, and then we can enjoy the benefits of a government that neither promotes nor prevents religion. Our respective positions can then compete in the marketplace of ideas, and whoever is right will, I hope, be proven correct in time.

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No! I will not come over to the dark side! :2razz:

Seriously though, what do you mean? I've participated in threads about these things before. Like the one about the high school valedictorian who said a prayer during the graduation ceremony which was not planned.

Paschendale said:

Except in the areas of abortion, contraception, same sex marriage, science, medicine, education... and let's not forget the many times that religion has been invoked to justify racial oppression and subjugation of women.

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l call it conservative racism :lol:

Ryan5 said:

Ataturk was a random occurrence in a time of strife. He truthfully, as evidenced by Islamist Erdogan's immense domestic popularity, was not a real cultural movement. Turkey is not some secularist mecca as you'd have us believe. One need only look at Erdogan's approval ratings for that. He is slaughtering the Secularists in the polls with the Turkish people.

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Two things

1 the AKP only got 50% votes cast last time round. This may still sound like a lot but the fact is that if Turkey had a fairer electoral system then the AKP would not be able to pass legislation alone.

2 its inaccurate to say that AKP vs CHP is as simple as secularism vs Islamism. Many vote AKP because they are disillusioned with the old guard on things like free speech or the Kurdish issue (on which they have an appalling record) or because simply the economy has developed (albeit in an inequitable and often corrupt manner) . Its simply not the case then when religion becomes an issue in elections all other issues magically disappear. There are very religious and very secular people on both sides.

Lastly as far as foreign support is concerned look at where Fethullah Gülen got his funding from.

Red_Dave said:

Two things

1 the AKP only got 50% votes cast last time round. This may still sound like a lot but the fact is that if Turkey had a fairer electoral system then the AKP would not be able to pass legislation alone.

2 its inaccurate to say that AKP vs CHP is as simple as secularism vs Islamism. Many vote AKP because they are disillusioned with the old guard on things like free speech or the Kurdish issue (on which they have an appalling record) or because simply the economy has developed (albeit in an inequitable and often corrupt manner) . Its simply not the case then when religion becomes an issue in elections all other issues magically disappear. There are very religious and very secular people on both sides.

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only 35% but the votes the small parties have received are redistributed to the other major parties because of 10% threshold for teh representation in parliament

many who have voted AKP have no islamic tendencies but they had to vote this dangerous virutic party because of lack of any other center right party