Life without god

tosca1 said:

This thread will not dwell on specific religion(s). This is about the existence of God.

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Actually the truth is,this thread is all about YOUR beliefs about God.

From your own original post.

tosca1 said:

If God does not exists, then life is objectively meaningless.

If there is no God, then objective right and wrong do not exist.

If there is no God, what awaits at the end of the line is death. Extinction. Then life has no purpose. We just pretend and make up things to give it some purpose.

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You made opinions posed as factual statements, and you did not pose any questions in that original post.
And you provided no proof.

In my own humble opinion,it's a vanity post.
It's all about you and what you believe.

tosca1 said:

If God does not exists, then life is objectively meaningless.

If there is no God, then objective right and wrong do not exist.

If there is no God, what awaits at the end of the line is death. Extinction. Then life has no purpose. We just pretend and make up things to give it some purpose.

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If God exists, then life is objectively meaningless since he knows what we will do already and doesn't really need us anyway.

If there is God, then objective right and wrong do not exist because God is spiteful and vengeful as seen when he lashes out in anger: Flooding the world and destroying Saddam and Gomorrah, not to mention raining plagues down on the first-born and what-not.

If there is God, what awaits at the end of the line is death. Extinction. Then life has no purpose. We just pretend and make up things to give it some purpose because spending eternity sitting beside some old dude and his son will get mighty boring in a hurry.

What I find pathetic is that people cannot fathom that god is not necessary to have meaning in life. Seriously it is absolutely pathetic that some people feel that they must have a god just to have meaning in their life - and are not even capable of grasping the concept that a meaningful life can and does exist independently of a god.

This runs right alongside the claims that without god there are no morals - as if god is the only thing keeping these individuals from being completely cruel and heartless and devoid of basic human empathy.

Both are absolutely asinine claims and demonstrate a complete inability to look outside of the box from which they are confined in.

This thread literally boggles my mind.

tosca1 said:

If sure death awaits everyone of us....and everything....what's the point?

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To make sure this life is as meaningful and as well spent as possible. To uplift those around you and to care for those you care for. To procreate and allow your legacy to continue into the next generations. To enjoy this world and all that your five senses deliver to you, to experience our emotions, the pain, the wonder, the beauty, the passion, the love ect, ect..

I am sorry you do not understand, but my mere existence, my consciousness, the existence of the world, and the people and things in it, and especially the existence of those close to me that I care for and love are all immense sources of meaning for my life. I daresay I think this life is much more meaningful than you since it is all that I have.

marduc said:

What I find pathetic is that people cannot fathom that god is not necessary to have meaning in life. Seriously it is absolutely pathetic that some people feel that they must have a god just to have meaning in their life - and are not even capable of grasping the concept that a meaningful life can and does exist independently of a god.

This runs right alongside the claims that without god there are no morals - as if god is the only thing keeping these individuals from being completely cruel and heartless and devoid of basic human empathy.

Both are absolutely asinine claims and demonstrate a complete inability to look outside of the box from which they are confined in.

This thread literally boggles my mind.

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Personally,I wish people would be a little more upfront and honest when they say "God" when it is clear they actually mean "MY GOD".
And by "MY GOD" they mean "what ever beliefs run counter what I believe in god are automatically invalid".

tosca1 said:

If God does not exists, then life is objectively meaningless.

If there is no God, then objective right and wrong do not exist.

If there is no God, what awaits at the end of the line is death. Extinction. Then life has no purpose. We just pretend and make up things to give it some purpose.

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So?

Regardless of if there is a God, life might be objectively meaningless.

Regardless of if there is a God, objective right and wrong may not exist

Regardless of if there is a God, life may have no purpose, eternal nothingness may await us after death, and we might well be just pretending and making things up to give ourselves the illusion of purpose.

Therein lies the flaw in the logic presented by theists. Just because some supreme being may exist does not mean that humanity has any objective value to said being. We would be to such a being as ants are to us.

Why would such a being give any consideration to something so far beneath it? The logical assumption is that it wouldn't waste any time over concern for us. Our lives are far more likely to be meaningless regardless of such a being's existence than they are to have objective meaning.

But golly it sure is comforting to pretend that our lives have objective meaning, isn't it? To pretend that some supreme being cares about us as individuals, because let's face it, the likely scenario sucks.

tosca1 said:

My point is: If God does exists, then life is not meaningless.

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Where did you draw that illogical conclusion from? The existence of a God does not guarantee that life has meaning.

tosca1 said:

If there is no God, then our life is no better qualitatively than that of a sheep, or a buffalo, or farm animals, or any other animals.

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There is one HUGE difference between me and farm animals, they are not playing host to my consciousness, my senses, my emotions - all that delivers to me the wonders of this world; I am, and I feel it is a wonderful life.

tosca1 said:

I have to get back to this, because what you just stated above paints a very frightening scenario. If there is no objective standard for right and wrong, and everyone can freely do anything without any fear of punishment....just sit back and think what kind of a world you'd live your one chance at life in.

Of course you do realize that in that scenario, it's not only you who'll be doing whatever he pleases without any fear of punishments.

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punishment from whom? mankind does a wonderful job of making sure those that disrupt our tribes are dealt with. We are social beings and we have rules governing our survival and peaceful co-existence without a need for a god to police us. We police our own, and in every culture those who are disruptive to the rest of the collective are dealt with.

tosca1 said:

If there is no God, then our life is no better qualitatively than that of a sheep, or a buffalo, or farm animals, or any other animals.

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Why would god care more about humans than sheep or buffalo? The differences between us and "lesser" animals would be relatively inconsequential to a supreme being. It's far more likely that if there is a God, out lives are just as meaningless as the life of a sheep.

tosca1 said:

My point is: If God does exists, then life is not meaningless.

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I'm struggling to understand your POV. Whether there is a God, we humans are very different from sheep and other animals: We reason. And part of reasoning is determining meaning and defining values for ourselves and the societies in which we live. This is why I'm always puzzled by threads that ask whether atheists can be moral. Because I'm coming from a "Well, duh, of course" POV, I don't even get that question.

My life has meaning to me and to others--because we reason--independent of the existence of God.

Re that, my view is the same. I don't believe in God because I fear nothinglessness after death (how would I know, LOL?); I believe because I have observed for myself this eternal truth. Others have not and reject what I've just said, and that's fine...and surely doesn't make their lives meaningless or without unique value.

tosca1 said:

If God does not exists, then life is objectively meaningless.

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If a supernatural deity doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist.

You cannot summon a deity into existence simply because you have an emotional desire for a supernatural entity to give your life meaning.

If there is no God, then objective right and wrong do not exist.

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At least 100 years of Western ethical theories has, in fact, tried to establish universal ethical criteria. Try reading Rawls, Scanlon and/or Parfit one of these days.

Plus, there is no objective way to determine which deity exists, let alone what ethical structures the deity wants to impose. An "objective" set of morals would have to be one where the source is accessible to empirical observations, and tests which could be applied by anyone; that just doesn't happen in religion. Religion relies on revelations and miracles and faith, none of which qualifies as "objective evidence."

If there is no God, what awaits at the end of the line is death.

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Yep.

The trick is: Without a deity, you don't have a bunch of priests imposing some external purpose on your life. You choose your own fate, your own destiny, your own meaning. Or, you can choose for your life not to have a specific meaning at all.

For example, you do not need a deity to command you to enjoy "helping others" or "protecting your neighbors" or "working hard," and so forth.

There is no objectivism, it is all subjective. You cannot prove that God exists objectively so you must believe subjectively, you must choose to believe, and then follow the path you've chosen, your life's meaning is that which you choose.

What if god tells you after you enter into the kingdom of heaven that he just created the universe to solve his boredom? Does that answer bring meaning to your life?

tosca1 said:

If God does not exists, then life is objectively meaningless.

If there is no God, then objective right and wrong do not exist.

If there is no God, what awaits at the end of the line is death. Extinction. Then life has no purpose. We just pretend and make up things to give it some purpose.

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in fact ,whether we believe in god or not

our own gods exist in our hearts .

Paschendale said:

Why are you so terrified of death? We don't disappear when we die. We leave behind a legacy. People remember us, if we did something worth remembering. We leave the world a different place than we found it. Some of us leave children behind to carry our physical existence. Life is meaningful because we give it meaning, not because of some magic reward afterwards. I imagine, though, that anyone who can't see meaning beyond their own existence isn't the sort of person to do much worth remembering.

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Why would you care whether there are children to carry your physical existence if you don't care about ceasing to exist?
You give it meaning - but it is a self-delusional meaning....to make yourself feel good. Why do you have this need to give it meaning?
Why not just accept you die - you blimp out - you're gone. For good?


To be continued...

Tucker Case said:

Why would god care more about humans than sheep or buffalo? The differences between us and "lesser" animals would be relatively inconsequential to a supreme being. It's far more likely that if there is a God, out lives are just as meaningless as the life of a sheep.

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There is also another view of God, which is that it's Oneness and infinite, of which we are a part. We are all fractalled expressions of a unified field. For me this seems more likely.

tosca1 said:

Why would you care whether there are children to carry your physical existence if you don't care about ceasing to exist?
You give it meaning - but it is a self-delusional meaning....to make yourself feel good. Why do you have this need to give it meaning?
Why not just accept you die - you blimp out - you're gone. For good?


To be continued...

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This is quite frankly insulting even more so than this entire thread has been. .

tosca1 said:

If God does not exists, then life is objectively meaningless.

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Yes, because without God, life is subjective, and much more enjoyable.

If there is no God, then objective right and wrong do not exist.

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No, even God's right and wrong are subjective. Do you think it's right to kill a child for disrespecting their parents?

If there is no God, what awaits at the end of the line is death. Extinction. Then life has no purpose. We just pretend and make up things to give it some purpose.

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The purpose of life is the continuation of the species. It is from that basic fact that morality is derived. You want the world you leave to be better for the next generation.

tosca1 said:

Why would you care whether there are children to carry your physical existence if you don't care about ceasing to exist?
You give it meaning - but it is a self-delusional meaning....to make yourself feel good. Why do you have this need to give it meaning?
Why not just accept you die - you blimp out - you're gone. For good?

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When did I say that I don't care about ceasing to exist? I certainly care. I want to have all sorts of great experiences before I cease. And I would like to be remembered after I cease. Preferably for good things rather than bad. And it is to make myself feel good. Why is making myself feel good a bad thing? I'm going to eat something that is delicious but not necessarily the best for my health in a few minutes. Pretty much for the purpose of making myself feel good. Why is that bad? And how am I deluding myself? I know exactly what I am doing. The cheese is bad for me, but I like it, so I'm going to eat it. I know the terms and consequences of my action perfectly.

I think your base assertion, at this point, has become that one shouldn't care about anything except continued existence in heaven. But the idea that nothing we do is important unless we can keep doing it forever... that's nihilism on a level I can't really comprehend. Is falling in love with someone hollow because we won't be together forever? Immorality sounds very unappealing, personally. I would prefer a mortal existence where I can do good works and forge relationships with people and feel satisfied about them than an endless one where I didn't do those things.

Wouldn't this life be truly meaningless if it were nothing more than a waiting room for the next one? If one really believes that only the future afterlife matters, then one should really try to live a life without thought, passion, or opinion, so as not to risk that eternal existence. One should probably never interact with another person, especially if sexual desire can rob a person of eternal existence. One should also take up a lot of reckless hobbies, since suicide isn't permitted but reckless accidents are. I should think that dying as quickly as possible with a clean soul would be the ideal choice for someone who believes that this life is irrelevant and only the next matters. If you really believe in eternity and judgment and souls and all that, then the mere century on Earth should pale in comparison to forever. So escaping the dangerous Earthly life as soon as possible would be the only sensible action. That is what it would be like if only immortality mattered.

tosca1 said:

If God does not exists, then life is objectively meaningless.

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why?

If there is no God, then objective right and wrong do not exist.

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can you expand on this?

If there is no God, what awaits at the end of the line is death. Extinction. Then life has no purpose. We just pretend and make up things to give it some purpose.

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hmmm ... seems to me that God is made up to give life some purpose

What purpose would that be then?

Why do you need God to have purpose in your life? Isn't having to earn a living a purpose? Isn't rearing kids or contributing to your community purpose enough as long as you're stuck here temporarily?

tosca1 said:

If God does not exists, then life is objectively meaningless.

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The thing is, I struggle to find what the meaning would be with a god. So you go up to heaven for eternity and then? Sounds too boring to contemplate.

tosca1 said:

If there is no God, then objective right and wrong do not exist.

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Then god should speak up and make it clear what 'right and wrong' is. We should not have to guess at it, and no the bible does not count as evidence.

tosca1 said:

If there is no God, what awaits at the end of the line is death. Extinction. Then life has no purpose. We just pretend and make up things to give it some purpose.

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Such is the cosmic hilarity of human existence. Best to not dwell on the end, cause it starts to seem like a sick joke, and trying to find 'purpose' to life in the context of that end leads nowhere. Take Hume's advice and just go find distractions and that's your meaning of life.

chromium said:

The thing is, I struggle to find what the meaning would be with a god. So you go up to heaven for eternity and then? Sounds too boring to contemplate.

Then god should speak up and make it clear what 'right and wrong' is. We should not have to guess at it, and no the bible does not count as evidence.

Such is the cosmic hilarity of human existence. Best to not dwell on the end, cause it starts to seem like a sick joke, and trying to find 'purpose' to life in the context of that end leads nowhere. Take Hume's advice and just go find distractions and that's your meaning of life.

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I can't imagine a life based on distractions intent on preventing me from paying attention to my life's inevitable end. But I think this is because I don't regard death as an ending.

nota bene said:

I can't imagine a life based on distractions intent on preventing me from paying attention to my life's inevitable end. But I think this is because I don't regard death as an ending.

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The Buddhist part of me leads me to think of death as an intermission. The only thing that puzzles me is whether or not it lasts long enough for me to hit the head *and* the concession stand.