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Life without god

CanadaJohn said:
As a non-practicing Catholic, I feel comfortable in saying that when I gave up Catholicism I began to have a meaningful life. That doesn't mean I gave up on the idea of a God, a higher power we fail to understand or comprehend, but that I gave up on the idea that fallible human beings no more special than I had any inside knowledge about what that higher power wanted with my life.
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True, we cannot truly fathom God, but we can try to understand Him. And we can learn from people who tried harder to understand God.

A man who wants to be a biologists would have to learn from a biology book written by someone of authority.
 
tosca1 said:
You define what God will do....and yet won't call it God. :mrgreen:
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Don't you really mean "Your God"?
Taoism doesn't anthropomorphize the Supreme
Some of us have different beliefs about the Supreme.And none of us are required to believe in it the same way you do.

tosca1 said:
We're not talking about religion(s). We are talking about the existence of God.
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Which of course can neither be proven,or disproved.
 
tosca1 said:
If God does not exists, then life is objectively meaningless.

If there is no God, then objective right and wrong do not exist.

If there is no God, what awaits at the end of the line is death. Extinction. Then life has no purpose. We just pretend and make up things to give it some purpose.
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madman said:
and i'll respond to that with: life is no better qualitatively than that of a sheep, or a buffalo, or farm animals, or any other animals. (this i agree)

We are humans and we dont know what kind of life animals live. For all we know, we are animals to them as well.
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What do you mean you don't know what kind of life animals live???

You don't have the cable for animal planet? You haven't read any Climate Change red alert for animals about to blimp out of existence?
 
Chaddelamancha said:
The Universe is here to support "life". Without "life", there is no universe.
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What do you mean by this? Surely the universe existed for billions of years before life?
 
tosca1 said:
True, we cannot truly fathom God, but we can try to understand Him.
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Or HER.
Or IT.
No one is required to view the Supreme the same way you do.[/quote]

tosca1 said:
And we can learn from people who tried harder to understand God.
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Or we can just talk to the Supreme directly.
Just because others tried to understand tried harder to understand the Supreme doesn't mean they were successful at doing so.
tosca1 said:
A man who wants to be a biologists would have to learn from a biology book written by someone of authority.
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A person who wants to have a personal relationship with the Supreme doesn't have to go through YOU or anyone YOU say is an "Authority"to do so.
That is between the individual and the Supreme.
 
tosca1 said:
True, we cannot truly fathom God, but we can try to understand Him. And we can learn from people who tried harder to understand God.

A man who wants to be a biologists would have to learn from a biology book written by someone of authority.
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True enough, but some mortal sanctions the expertise of the biologist - who sanctions the expertise of the theologian or the validity of his/her formulae?
 
Paschendale said:
Wrong on all counts. And without any reasoning to back them up. My life would have a lot less meaning if I were nothing more than a plaything for a god. Instead I have free will, to live my life as I choose, without fearing punishment from a divine slavemaster.
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I have to get back to this, because what you just stated above paints a very frightening scenario. If there is no objective standard for right and wrong, and everyone can freely do anything without any fear of punishment....just sit back and think what kind of a world you'd live your one chance at life in.

Of course you do realize that in that scenario, it's not only you who'll be doing whatever he pleases without any fear of punishments.
 
tosca1 said:
If God does not exists, then life is objectively meaningless.

If there is no God, then objective right and wrong do not exist.

If there is no God, what awaits at the end of the line is death. Extinction. Then life has no purpose. We just pretend and make up things to give it some purpose.
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... and? Your point is what?
 
If life ends at death, then it makes no difference whether you live your life as a pious Pope....or indulge in your sadistic tendencies as
Dr. Mengele.
Since your fate is unrelated to your behaviour, you may just as well live as you please. As the Russian writer Fyodor Dostoyevsky said: "If there is no immorality.....then all things are permitted."
 
tosca1 said:
If life ends at death, then it makes no difference whether you live your life as a pious Pope....or indulge in your sadistic tendencies as
Dr. Mengele.
Since your fate is unrelated to your behaviour, you may just as well live as you please. As the Russian writer Fyodor Dostoyevsky said: "If there is no immorality.....then all things are permitted."
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Again, I like what you're saying and I support it but do you care to make a point? Debates are fairly lousy if we agree.
 
tosca1 said:
If life ends at death, then it makes no difference whether you live your life as a pious Pope....or indulge in your sadistic tendencies as
Dr. Mengele.
Since your fate is unrelated to your behaviour, you may just as well live as you please. As the Russian writer Fyodor Dostoyevsky said: "If there is no immorality.....then all things are permitted."
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Yet you CHOSEN to live the live as you pleased.In your case it happened to be a Christian life.
Stop sticking your nose into other peoples business and live YOUR life.
 
tosca1 said:
If God does exists, then life is not meaningless.
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So, it's safe to say, at this point in time, it' scientifically valid to say life is objectively meaningless? :lol:
 
Chaddelamancha said:
Lifes purpose is what you make it. You don't need a God for that. If a man gets up everyday and does what ever he can to help those who are unfortunate because it makes him feel good, how is that not some purpose?
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You validated her OP. Notice she said

tosca1 said:
If God does not exists, then life is objectively meaningless.
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So, purpose is what is made, that is subjective, not objective.
 
tosca1 said:
If we blimp out of existence when we die, then what ultimate meaning can we say of life?

If everyone and everything is doomed, then what does it matter that you contributed and influenced anything? What does it matter if you are a scientist who discovered something to the advancement of human knowledge, or you've done researches to alleviate pain and sufferings, or the President that managed to secure peace for the world? Why would anyone sacrifice themselves to better the lives of others?
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Why are you so terrified of death? We don't disappear when we die. We leave behind a legacy. People remember us, if we did something worth remembering. We leave the world a different place than we found it. Some of us leave children behind to carry our physical existence. Life is meaningful because we give it meaning, not because of some magic reward afterwards. I imagine, though, that anyone who can't see meaning beyond their own existence isn't the sort of person to do much worth remembering.

tosca1 said:
What do you mean by free will? Free will necessitates making a choice between right and wrong....good and bad....making a choice between two conflicting things, otherwise it's not free will at all.

Where did this standard come from that allows you to make the choice?
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It doesn't have to "come from" anywhere. That's just how we are. Sure, our interactions with each other are based in our biology and evolution. But nothing in our makeup requires external intervention. Nor does free will necessarily mean deciding between right and wrong. Deciding between chocolate and vanilla ice cream is fine, too. However, one does not have free will if there is a penalty of horrendous torture for disagreeing with an authority.

tosca1 said:
True, we cannot truly fathom God, but we can try to understand Him. And we can learn from people who tried harder to understand God.

A man who wants to be a biologists would have to learn from a biology book written by someone of authority.
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Yes, but there is no such thing as an authority on god. There are only a bunch of bronze and iron age goatherders and wanderers who knew less about the world and about morality than a nine year old today. And there are people who pour through edited translations of edited translations of edited translations of of things those ignorant men (and they were all men, no women allowed) wrote to codify their own power, filter what they read through modern, secular civilization, and think that this makes them knowledgeable. Steven Hawking and Neil Degrasse Tyson know more about the cosmic truths of the universe than any theologian ever has.

None of this, of course, has anything to do with whether or not god is essential to a good or meaningful life. Which, of course, is not.

Verthaine said:
Which of course can neither be proven,or disproved.
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Of course it can be proven or disproved. Easily proven by god making himself known to people who aren't already determined that he/she/it exists. Easily disproved if anyone will offer a concrete definition of god, like actual things that they claim god has done. If you define god as bringing the Jews out of Egypt, then it's easy to disprove god, since there was no lengthy captivity of Hebrew people in Egypt during that time period. If you define god as healing sick people when they are prayed for, then you can easily disprove god, as prayers produce no measurable effect on the recovery of sick people. The mantra that god cannot be disproved is something that theists adopted recently when their factual claims about god were disproved, one by one. Only by adopting a vague and nebulous definition of god, and requiring that god be attempting to conceal himself from us, can this idea that god cannot be proven or disproved be maintained. That there is no evidence to prove god means either that god doesn't interact with us, and is thus irrelevant, intentionally deceives us, and so cannot be trusted, or doesn't exist.

tosca1 said:
I have to get back to this, because what you just stated above paints a very frightening scenario. If there is no objective standard for right and wrong, and everyone can freely do anything without any fear of punishment....just sit back and think what kind of a world you'd live your one chance at life in.

Of course you do realize that in that scenario, it's not only you who'll be doing whatever he pleases without any fear of punishments.
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I'm pretty happy with a world where humans are free to determine what our morality should be. We have, as a community, decided that slavery is wrong, in direct defiance to the supposed objective morality of god and the bible. We have decided that killing people over their beliefs is wrong, again contrary to the morality of god. Do you really think that we'll all suddenly become murderers and rapists if we don't think that we'll suffer for it when we die? You do know that we'll suffer for it while we're alive, right? We don't kill, mainly because we like living in a society where people don't kill. And because we'll be locked up if we do. So, the idea that anyone but a small fringe need consequences to keep from killing is wrong, as is the idea that that small fringe doesn't face consequences.

Every part of our premise is unfounded and wrong.

tosca1 said:
My point is: If God does exists, then life is not meaningless.
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An immortal life as a slave is less meaningful than a short, free life?

I can't read this thread fast enough to keep up with all the nonsense.
 
Maybe consciousness or self awareness is an unobserved, inherent factor within the universe and was an inevitable outcome of matter gradually coalescing into more and more complex forms?
 
CanadaJohn said:
True enough, but some mortal sanctions the expertise of the biologist - who sanctions the expertise of the theologian or the validity of his/her formulae?
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That's up to the individual to determine if he/she would want to investigate. When we talk of faith, proof is not really required. Although there are tell-tale signs if one is following a cult or questionable religion. But as to established ancient religions (Christianity, Hindu, Buddhism, Islam)....it's up to the individual.

This thread will not dwell on specific religion(s). This is about the existence of God.

Btw, since you believe in the idea of God, what is your idea of God?
 
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Dunno what the point in really talking about this is, since that's all it is: talk. "Meaning" is so semantic and is tied to language. Do you need meaning to exist? When you're asleep at night and your ego is turned off for 8 hours, do you need meaning then?

Meaning is just the ego grasping for confirmation that it is special, unique, and in the case of the truly deluded, immortal. No part of what you identify as "you" survives death, regardless if the soul is real or not. Ego and "self" are unquestioned yet unverified constructs fed to you at an early age. It's only this "you" that requires meaning to give itself some kind of purpose and in turn further proof of its non-existence.

Meditation shows us that once ego and mind are quieted, there is a subtle Being within that never changes. It makes no demands. It holds no meaning. That's what you are... not all these pointless questions.
 
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