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The state of racial equality[W: 75]

Re: The state of racial equality

Indeed said:
No matter how it is stated, separating people into groups and then treating them differently based on what group they are in still rings as stereotyping and prejudice in my ears.
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back when my kid brother was applying for medical schools this was very evident. For a white male to be "qualified" they had to make a certain score on the MCAT. the score needed for a minority male was 20 points lower. the score needed for a white female was 5 points lower still. and the score needed for a minority female was 5 points even lower still.

IF we are all created equal.....why do we need different standards for different groups?
 
Re: The state of racial equality

iliveonramen said:
Where they treated alike? For example a minority kid that went to a failing urban school yet still scores (using new scalle 600-2400) 2200 is the same as a kid that scores a 2300 that went to prep schools or even a good public school? The kid working 30 hours a week while going to school is the same as the kid that focuses entirely on school with expensive prep programs?

What you're saying is that the consideration should be entirely on where they are at that specific time...that's "equal". Most of the time when you're talking about affirmative actions it's not some minority kid with subpar grades/scores being let in over a white kid it's two kids with nearly equal metrics where additional consideration is given to someone based on their background.



So if black continually are out performed by whites you're enirely fine with chalking that up to something say...whites are just better in those metric inherently? I look at large differences in outcome and my first reaction is there's something "baked in" that causes large discrepencies.



Well first of all it's overblown. If it was some large force you would see the statistics tipping in the other direction. It hasn't so it's obviously not some issue of fairness. So a white kid with rich parents that went to prep school and had expensive tutors loses out a seat to a minority kid with none of those advantages. The rich kid's parents sent him to Columbia or Vanderbilt or Dartmouth instead.
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why is it that when it comes to discussions of discrimination, no one ever mentions professional sports? If we are going to have affirmative action...shouldn't the NBA be forced to lower their standards to allow more white players? shouldn't the NHL be "encouraged" to adopt policies to bring in more minority hockey players? Where are all the minority NASCAR drivers?

Why is it that most people can seem to accept the fact that we are not all born with the same capacity to hone/improve our physical attributes, but scream bloody murder if you dare imply that we are not all born with the same mental capacity?
 
Re: The state of racial equality

Knowledge=power said:
Reverse discrimination suits flourish - US news - Life - Race & ethnicity | NBC News

This article sheds some light on the issue of discrimination towards whites or "reverse racism."

Many people it seems feel that it is a disadvantage to be white when it comes to competing for promotions, acceptance into universities, freedom of speech, etc. They feel that other races have an advantage simply because in the situations listed, other races are selected or given extended privileges either because the institution is discriminating against whites, or are avoiding racially charged political issues.

Do you feel that discrimination and racial inequality have shifted on to the caucasian population?

Why, or why not?
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no, of course not because Caucasians are still the majority. Hard to shift passed that.

now dont misunderstand me, minorities are 100% capable of being racist themselves (reverse racism is a made slang term thats illogical) and thier are plenty of minorities out there that are racists.

Anyway any lawsuit directed at AA/EO is stupid because its a fact that AA helps white people also LOL

now PEOPLE will misuse AA/EO and try to hide thier wrong practices or whatever behind those titles but those people and practices are the problem, NOT AA/EO.

What those people do is NOT AA/EO no matter how much anybody claims it is.

By design AA/EO can not discriminate.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

Indeed said:
I've been thinking only in terms of colleges due to my current circumstances.

No matter how it is stated, separating people into groups and then treating them differently based on what group they are in still rings as stereotyping and prejudice in my ears.

And I also believe that any black man is just as capable of any kind of action or career as any white man, which means he doesn't need help beyond that of what any white man may need.

Affirmative Action is racist. Black people are neither inferior nor superior to white people, thus they do not need different standards to achieve the same goals. Not all people of a race come from the same background, so they will have differing levels of capability which is why they have to be assessed as individuals, not groups.

Had more to type, but I've got to go. I'll be back.
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Numbers don't lie.

A perfect example...go back to say the 1800's when you had an influx of Irish immigrants. You had a high number if Irish immigrants committing crimes and being incarcerated. That's just a fact. Alcoholism was rampant, individuals lived in slums. Also a fact.

Racism is attributing that to being Irish (like people did at the time).

It's not racism to recognize there is a problem and account the numbers to other factors other than race.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

iliveonramen said:
Numbers don't lie.

A perfect example...go back to say the 1800's when you had an influx of Irish immigrants. You had a high number if Irish immigrants committing crimes and being incarcerated. That's just a fact. Alcoholism was rampant, individuals lived in slums. Also a fact.

Racism is attributing that to being Irish (like people did at the time).



It's not racism to recognize there is a problem and account the numbers to other factors other than race.
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You are characterizing your plight it such a way that it appears that a time will never come when you can succeed without Affirmative Action?
 
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Re: The state of racial equality

iliveonramen said:
Numbers don't lie.
A perfect example...go back to say the 1800's when you had an influx of Irish immigrants. You had a high number if Irish immigrants committing crimes and being incarcerated. That's just a fact. Alcoholism was rampant, individuals lived in slums. Also a fact.

Racism is attributing that to being Irish (like people did at the time).

It's not racism to recognize there is a problem and account the numbers to other factors other than race.
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but the problem today is that you cannot even mention that there is an issue without someone accusing you of making it about race.

simple example:

black males make up around 9% of the population, but account for nearly 40% of the prison population
blacks make up ~18% of the population, but account for roughly 33% of the people on welfare.
if you are black, you are 3 times more likely to be a murder victim than if you are white. and over 90% of the time the killer is another black person.
the rate of new HIV infections is 7 times as high among blacks than it is among whites and double the rate among hispanics

numbers alone would indicate that there is a problem in the black population that is causing them to be greatly over-represented in these negative statistics. no one is claiming that it is simply "because they are black", but you can't even have a rational conversation about it without someone raising the flag of "racism"
 
Re: The state of racial equality

OscarB63 said:
why is it that when it comes to discussions of discrimination, no one ever mentions professional sports? If we are going to have affirmative action...shouldn't the NBA be forced to lower their standards to allow more white players? shouldn't the NHL be "encouraged" to adopt policies to bring in more minority hockey players? Where are all the minority NASCAR drivers?

Why is it that most people can seem to accept the fact that we are not all born with the same capacity to hone/improve our physical attributes, but scream bloody murder if you dare imply that we are not all born with the same mental capacity?
Click to expand...

OscarB63 said:
why is it that when it comes to discussions of discrimination, no one ever mentions professional sports? If we are going to have affirmative action...shouldn't the NBA be forced to lower their standards to allow more white players? shouldn't the NHL be "encouraged" to adopt policies to bring in more minority hockey players? Where are all the minority NASCAR drivers?
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Well first of all those are private organizations and affirmative action is strictly relevant for the public sector. So if you have a problem you can always sue them for discrimination but you still need to prove you were discriminated against...which isn't easy. You can clearly try and make the case though.

Why is it that most people can seem to accept the fact that we are not all born with the same capacity to hone/improve our physical attributes, but scream bloody murder if you dare imply that we are not all born with the same mental capacity?
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Because first of all who plays in what sport isn't indicative of anything. It's a pretty bad measure....

Latino's make up nearly 30% of total MLB athletes, and less than 5% in NFL and NBA.

African Americans make up 67% of NFL players, just under 80% of NBA players.....and less than 10% of MLB players.

Whites make up 65ish% of MLB players, just over 10% in the NBA and 30% in the NFL.

When I look at those numbers it kind of shows a less the clear picture. Hell...break it down by region!

NFL players born in 87 (39% South, a little over 20% Pacific, 19% North East, 10% Mountain West). Well based on that obviously southernors are just natural athletes compared to every region in the country?

In baseball...more atheltes come from the Dominican Republic (Pop 10 million) than Florida, Texas. The number from California is 110 but they have 5 times the population and less than double the baseball players than the Domincan Republic. Besides Venezuala which also has a very high representation (more than everyone else but the Domincan and California) the Dominican Republic sends more folks than the rest of the world combined!

Man...the Dominican Republic must just be superior athletes when it comes to baseball than the rest of the world right? Also keep in mind professional athletes is a very small population to use as indicative of anything much less overall populations.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

iliveonramen said:
Well first of all those are private organizations and affirmative action is strictly relevant for the public sector. So if you have a problem you can always sue them for discrimination but you still need to prove you were discriminated against...which isn't easy. You can clearly try and make the case though.


Because first of all who plays in what sport isn't indicative of anything. It's a pretty bad measure....

Latino's make up nearly 30% of total MLB athletes, and less than 5% in NFL and NBA.

African Americans make up 67% of NFL players, just under 80% of NBA players.....and less than 10% of MLB players.

Whites make up 65ish% of MLB players, just over 10% in the NBA and 30% in the NFL.

When I look at those numbers it kind of shows a less the clear picture. Hell...break it down by region!

NFL players born in 87 (39% South, a little over 20% Pacific, 19% North East, 10% Mountain West). Well based on that obviously southernors are just natural athletes compared to every region in the country?

In baseball...more atheltes come from the Dominican Republic (Pop 10 million) than Florida, Texas. The number from California is 110 but they have 5 times the population and less than double the baseball players than the Domincan Republic. Besides Venezuala which also has a very high representation (more than everyone else but the Domincan and California) the Dominican Republic sends more folks than the rest of the world combined!

Man...the Dominican Republic must just be superior athletes when it comes to baseball than the rest of the world right? Also keep in mind professional athletes is a very small population to use as indicative of anything much less overall populations.
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I was being facetious, but it does indicate that differences in physical ability are considered differently.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

rhinefire said:
I think the definition of racism negates the phrase "reverse descrimination". Racism is what it is, against this race or that race. It is the single belief that one race does not deserve the same treatment as another race. "Descrimination" is institutional and here in this country it does exists and descrimination against whites is more tolerable than against blacks and other monorities. The reason is whites are better off in many ways and when it strikes out at them is does not ring of hundreds of years of suppression, slavery, etc. Minorities are always on the watch to attack acts of descrimination and frankly, whites just don't get as upset with it. Few if any minorities will state descrimination is dead and if you have never experienced it then it will not have the same impact. The day is coming when the whites will be a minority here and that wil be fun to watch.
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I live in a area where caucasians are a minority. And there are plenty other places in this country where locally caucasians are the minority. And there is plenty of people fighting about racism in these areas. Its not fun to watch at all lol.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

OscarB63 said:
but the problem today is that you cannot even mention that there is an issue without someone accusing you of making it about race.

simple example:

black males make up around 9% of the population, but account for nearly 40% of the prison population
blacks make up ~18% of the population, but account for roughly 33% of the people on welfare.
if you are black, you are 3 times more likely to be a murder victim than if you are white. and over 90% of the time the killer is another black person.
the rate of new HIV infections is 7 times as high among blacks than it is among whites and double the rate among hispanics

numbers alone would indicate that there is a problem in the black population that is causing them to be greatly over-represented in these negative statistics. no one is claiming that it is simply "because they are black", but you can't even have a rational conversation about it without someone raising the flag of "racism"
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I don't think that's true. It's how statistics are used. The incarceration rates of african american males is considered an epidemic. HIV among African Americans is talked about. It's when it's used in certain contexts that racism is mentioned.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

iliveonramen said:
I don't think that's true. It's how statistics are used. The incarceration rates of african american males is considered an epidemic. HIV among African Americans is talked about. It's when it's used in certain contexts that racism is mentioned.
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I have to disagree. any time I have seen the topic mentioned, racism always get brought up.

mention blacks and prison pop and someone always claims that it is due to racist policies and profiling
mention blacks underperforming in academics and someone always claims that the tests are "culturally biased"
any discussion of blacks and negative statistics is inevitably going to lead to someone blaming it on "racism"
 
Re: The state of racial equality

OscarB63 said:
I was being facetious, but it does indicate that differences in physical ability are considered differently.
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Of course...I just think it's interesting how culture and other factors play into something that is considered by most to be completely based on merit and talent. I mean if you're a basketball player you probably are from an urban area. If you're a football player you probably come from the south. If you're a baseball player you're either from latin america or temperate climates. 60 years ago baseball was dominated by italian americans from the NE. Now it's dominated by latin americans from Venezuala and Domincan Republic.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

Ray410 said:
You are characterizing your plight it such a way that it appears that a time will never come when you can succeed without Affirmative Action?
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Well the Irish had their own form of Affirmative Action. They dominated a handful of population centers and took jobs like policeman/fireman/civil servants. Machine politicas were the Irish's form of Affirmative Action. African Americans unfortunately have left behind blatant instititutional discrimination about the same time that typical middle class jobs that acted as a spring board to higher wage jobs are dissapearing, the number of government jobs are decreasing, and overall income levels for lower income folks is just going down period.

I also want to point out something obvious...racism leveled agains the Irish/Italians/Catholics etc were at a completely different level than racism leveled at African Americans in this country. The only comparison would be the Natives.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

OscarB63 said:
I have to disagree. any time I have seen the topic mentioned, racism always get brought up.

mention blacks and prison pop and someone always claims that it is due to racist policies and profiling
mention blacks underperforming in academics and someone always claims that the tests are "culturally biased"
any discussion of blacks and negative statistics is inevitably going to lead to someone blaming it on "racism"
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Well it's hard to defend something I didn't say or not witnessing but yeah...ultimately I would agree just using statistics or facts isn't racist. How you use them is racist.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

iliveonramen said:
Well it's hard to defend something I didn't say or not witnessing but yeah...ultimately I would agree just using statistics or facts isn't racist. How you use them is racist.
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agreed, statistics/facts in and of themselves are neutral. you could use them to support a racist argument. the problem I have seen is that, regardless of the argument, you get accused of racism.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

Fisher said:
Well I consider myself skilled enough that I could find employment elsewhere if I so desired. Maybe it is not giving up, but self-sufficiency. I have never let myself become too dependent on an employer. You say potato, I say tater and all that.
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So you would be ok with being denied a job you were qualified for because you are white and the employer does not want to offend other applicants of a different race?
 
Re: The state of racial equality

OscarB63 said:
libs hated bush, posted signs and billboards comparing him to a monkey.... nadda, zip, zilch, crickets chirping
cons hate obama ... OMFG!!!! they're racists!!!!!!
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Exactly. It's ok to claim racism as long as you are not white, which is definitely proof of a political landscape riddled with double standards.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

Knowledge=power said:
So you would be ok with being denied a job you were qualified for because you are white and the employer does not want to offend other applicants of a different race?
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hopefully, you do know that minority applicant who was selected for the job had to have been at least as qualified as you to win the position
 
Re: The state of racial equality

Knowledge=power said:
Exactly. It's ok to claim racism as long as you are not white, which is definitely proof of a political landscape riddled with double standards.
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the biggest problem with all the double standards on racism is that "racism" becomes a catchall excuse for not addressing issues.

can't get a job? it's not because you are an unqualified HS dropout...it's due to racism.
can't get into college? it's not because you didn't apply yourself in HS...it's because of racism.
the cops pull you over? it's not because you made an illegal left turn across 3 lanes of traffice...it's because you were "profiled"
got sent to jail for smoking crack? it's not because you broke the law...it's because the law unfairly targets a certain segment of the population
etc, etc, etc.

it's the boy who cried wolf syndrome. when you blame everything on racism, many people won't believe you when something racist actually does happen to you.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

Knowledge=power said:
So you would be ok with being denied a job you were qualified for because you are white and the employer does not want to offend other applicants of a different race?
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Sure. I have been denied jobs for worse reasons like being over qualified. BTW, I was denied an opportunity before grad school because I was neither a female nor a minority and they were very clear about that--"We would love to hire you, but....". I didn't freak out about it. I was pissed a little at the time for about a day, but I found employment elsewhere quickly enough. Not that big a deal. I understand why the policies exist. It is just reality. No point bucking up against it because you are never going to change it. It isn't like I was hosed down the street or beaten with a billy club or had attack dogs set loose on me.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

justabubba said:
hopefully, you do know that minority applicant who was selected for the job had to have been at least as qualified as you to win the position
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under AA this is not always the case. many times being "qualified" is based on different standards. use the army PT test as an example. (not race based, but the principle is the same)

I get the same score as a female my same age. on the surface that would indicate that she is just as physically fit as I am.

but her standard is much lower than mine.

to get maximum credit, I have to do 59 push-ups, she only has to do 31.
I have to run 2 miles in 14:24, she gets an extra 3:12 to get the same score.

so is she really "just as qualified" as I am, even though we both get the same score?
 
Re: The state of racial equality

OscarB63 said:
under AA this is not always the case. many times being "qualified" is based on different standards. use the army PT test as an example. (not race based, but the principle is the same)

I get the same score as a female my same age. on the surface that would indicate that she is just as physically fit as I am.

but her standard is much lower than mine.

to get maximum credit, I have to do 59 push-ups, she only has to do 31.
I have to run 2 miles in 14:24, she gets an extra 3:12 to get the same score.

so is she really "just as qualified" as I am, even though we both get the same score?
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under AA/EEOC hiring provisions my statement is correct as presented
an under-qualified minority candidate is prohibited from being hired as an AA hire where there is a fully qualified majority candidate available
it is only where both candidates are fully qualified that the minority candidate then receives the advantage to be selected for the position
 
Re: The state of racial equality

justabubba said:
under AA/EEOC hiring provisions my statement is correct as presented
an under-qualified minority candidate is prohibited from being hired as an AA hire where there is a fully qualified majority candidate available
it is only where both candidates are fully qualified that the minority candidate then receives the advantage to be selected for the position
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which is still inherently "unfair"

consider a reverse situation. if I apply for a federal job, due to my status as a veteran I get a 5 point preference. does that make me "equally qualified" as the other guy? especially if my military experience is unrelated to the position? many people would claim that I am being given an unfair advantage over non-veterans. even though my "preference" is based on my actions and not the random circumstances of my birth.
 
Re: The state of racial equality

OscarB63 said:
which is still inherently "unfair"
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not at all
with two or more fully qualified candidates, the selection goes to the minority applicant since the minority population has been disadvantaged over our history. this is a small step toward restoring balance

consider a reverse situation. if I apply for a federal job, due to my status as a veteran I get a 5 point preference. does that make me "equally qualified" as the other guy? especially if my military experience is unrelated to the position? many people would claim that I am being given an unfair advantage over non-veterans. even though my "preference" is based on my actions and not the random circumstances of my birth.
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if you and the other guy are fully qualified, then you should receive the position because of the advantage you have earned
were you under qualified, despite your preference, no you should not be selected
 
Re: The state of racial equality

Ray410 said:
That depiction is incorrect. The pattern shown was not that certain groups were treated differently, the pattern shown was that the RESULTS were different for certain groups when all were treated alike.

Attempting to change the results, when all groups are treated alike, is what has caused the enormous resentment over ethnic and racial favoritism. Someone, usually the more qualified, or more experienced, must lose in favor of one who, for whatever reason, has a less favorable score.

There is no way to disguise the fact that, regardless of the seemingly endless justifications that we have seen, artificially changing the results is not fair. This has resulted in the Political Correctness mandate that unfairness is acceptable as long as the only victims are white. Problem solved.
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And what's worse that complaining about it automatically earns a white person the title of 'racist,' which is not equality. I'm sure some of the posters here will call me a racist just for saying that.
 
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