Killed in the Name of Belief or Killed Without Belief

Cephus said:

Both of which were largely inspired by Christianity, they absolutely deserve to be on there, but the graph is clearly biased, they didn't want to put anything on it that didn't show what they wanted shown.

Click to expand...

Explain to me how the HOLOCAUST was CHRISTIAN inspired please? I suggest you cite that.

And please explain to me, and cite, how the Native American genocide was inspired by Christianity, rather than the greed and western expansion of the European/white American culture?

Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you get to rewrite history.

ChezC3 said:

That's poppycock for one, second, that is metaphysical lust that is their motivation, not religion.

Click to expand...

qoran doesnt mention such jihad or 72 virgins . but their sects make them believe they will go to heaven with lots of houris if they kill the others and themselves

so religion somehow motivates them to blow up themselves

Medusa said:

islamist suicide bombers are motivated by the idea of having 72 virgins in heaven.

Click to expand...

Yep..quite a list of needs..

There are several descriptions related to houri that are found in various Islamic references. Some include:

Physical Attributes:

Wide and beautiful/lovely eyes
Like pearls
Hairless except the eye brows and the head



Beautiful
White skinned
60 cubits [27.5 meters] tall
Transparent to the marrow of their bones
Eternally young

Sexual Attributes:

Untouched / with hymen unbroken by sexual intercourse
Virgins
Voluptuous/full-breasted
With large, round breasts which are not inclined to hang
Appetizing vaginas

Personality Attributes:

Chaste
Restraining their glances
Modest gaze

Other Attributes:

Splendid
Pure
Non-menstruating / non-urinating/ non-defecating and child free
Never dissatisfied
Will sing praise...

That's me screwed then!!!

wolfie said:

Yep..quite a list of needs..

There are several descriptions related to houri that are found in various Islamic references. Some include:

Physical Attributes:

Wide and beautiful/lovely eyes
Like pearls
Hairless except the eye brows and the head



Beautiful
White skinned
60 cubits [27.5 meters] tall
Transparent to the marrow of their bones
Eternally young

Sexual Attributes:

Untouched / with hymen unbroken by sexual intercourse
Virgins
Voluptuous/full-breasted
With large, round breasts which are not inclined to hang
Appetizing vaginas

Personality Attributes:

Chaste
Restraining their glances
Modest gaze

Other Attributes:

Splendid
Pure
Non-menstruating / non-urinating/ non-defecating and child free
Never dissatisfied
Will sing praise...

That's me screwed then!!!

Click to expand...

only reference is qoran wolfie . muslims arent interested in such things .but islamists are.

First of all, socialism was anti-religious, not atheist. There are plenty of ****ty religious socialists, like Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein. If all the crimes of an anti-religious governments are to be judged, then so must all the crimes of religious governments, which was every European monarchy. Ever.

Simply put, the graph in the OP is cherry picking apples and oranges.

Medusa said:

qoran doesnt mention such jihad or 72 virgins . but their sects make them believe they will go to heaven with lots of houris if they kill the others and themselves

so religion somehow motivates them to blow up themselves

Click to expand...

No, that would fall under pretext.

ChezC3 said:

That's poppycock for one, second, that is metaphysical lust that is their motivation, not religion.

Click to expand...

I am a Christian. I am very much annoyed by ridiculous claims though. I can say though...it is a religious motivation. That doesn't mean I as a Christian must take responsibility for the beliefs of a lost soul. I am saddened by it. I am also saddened that someone would manipulate those who are lost into blowing themselves up in the name of a cause. I have issues with Islam as a religion because of that...but I do recognize that not ALL Muslims are like that. It doesn't change the religion is the tool used by the leaders to manipulate the suicide bombers. Another amusing part is that Islamic terrorism is a wild card. It is a randomly assorted group in terms of motivation. MANY of the men (leaders included) are motivated by an extremist view of religion. That is not the case of all though. Others are driven by greed and are paid well for that greed. It is all demonstrated through the CIA activities against groups like Al Queda. Some of the people flipped for money. Others wouldn't flip because they were religious fanatics and were dedicated to the cause. Like I said though. Just because someone is an extremist and chooses to identify with a similar belief as you...doesn't mean YOU have to accept the responsibility for it.

spud_meister said:

First of all, socialism was anti-religious, not atheist. There are plenty of ****ty religious socialists, like Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein. If all the crimes of an anti-religious governments are to be judged, then so must all the crimes of religious governments, which was every European monarchy. Ever.

Simply put, the graph in the OP is cherry picking apples and oranges.

Click to expand...

I think the point was to demonstrate that there are plenty of reasons to kill, and saying that religion is the chief reason is ridiculous. The OP is correct that many people are trying to associate religion with the chief motivation for war, even though most wars are NOT caused by religion. They are caused by greedy political megalomaniacs who want to rule the world. The "cherry picked" graph is quite alright for showing that point. It could become more in depth by adding the most brutal wars in mankind to the list...but I think the point was made.

stonewall50 said:

I am a Christian. I am very much annoyed by ridiculous claims though. I can say though...it is a religious motivation. That doesn't mean I as a Christian must take responsibility for the beliefs of a lost soul. I am saddened by it. I am also saddened that someone would manipulate those who are lost into blowing themselves up in the name of a cause. I have issues with Islam as a religion because of that...but I do recognize that not ALL Muslims are like that. It doesn't change the religion is the tool used by the leaders to manipulate the suicide bombers. Another amusing part is that Islamic terrorism is a wild card. It is a randomly assorted group in terms of motivation. MANY of the men (leaders included) are motivated by an extremist view of religion. That is not the case of all though. Others are driven by greed and are paid well for that greed. It is all demonstrated through the CIA activities against groups like Al Queda. Some of the people flipped for money. Others wouldn't flip because they were religious fanatics and were dedicated to the cause. Like I said though. Just because someone is an extremist and chooses to identify with a similar belief as you...doesn't mean YOU have to accept the responsibility for it.

Click to expand...

Then I am sorry to say you are laying blame at the wrong door.

My position is nuanced but it is quite sound. Let me give an example.

In Islam, it is the religion which states apostacy brings a sentence of death. Now there are many factors, variabes, and conditions that must be met, a trial be had, but that is a tenet of the Faith. This is something others might find reprehensable. You can blame religion (Islam) for this.

The 72 virgin schpeal is a false interpretation. It is a perversion to the religion. Islam, the religion cannot be blamed for the perversion, the pervert must be blamed for using Islam and the false application of its tenets as a pretext for some sort of behavior which contadicts the actual tenets of the Faith, or making excuse for behavior which contradicts those tenets.

You must blame someone who throws up religion as a justification for actions which said religion rails against, you cannot blame religion, it is not the religion that is the motivating factor it is the misapplication, the misinterpretation whether purposeful or not which is the motivator, not the religion.

stonewall50 said:

Explain to me how the HOLOCAUST was CHRISTIAN inspired please? I suggest you cite that.

Click to expand...

German / Nazi anti-semitism was grounded in centuries of Christian hatred for the Jews. Europe has a long history of intermittent pogroms against Jews, based on religious hatred.

The Nazis did target other groups (iirc homosexuals and gypsies), but the primary motivation was religious. There really shouldn't be any doubt about that.

And please explain to me, and cite, how the Native American genocide was inspired by Christianity, rather than the greed and western expansion of the European/white American culture?

Click to expand...

It's both.

Again there should be little doubt that Americans thought of the Native American tribes as unsophisticated savages, who lacked moral capacity because they were not Christian.

Visbek said:

German / Nazi anti-semitism was grounded in centuries of Christian hatred for the Jews. Europe has a long history of intermittent pogroms against Jews, based on religious hatred.

The Nazis did target other groups (iirc homosexuals and gypsies), but the primary motivation was religious. There really shouldn't be any doubt about that.



It's both.

Again there should be little doubt that Americans thought of the Native American tribes as unsophisticated savages, who lacked moral capacity because they were not Christian.

Click to expand...

Not really. It was anyone who couldn't contribute to the cause or could stand in the way of it. There were millions of Slavic people, disabled/handicapped, artists, political opponents, etc. killed. You might want to consider the "Jews control all the money" thinking outweighed "The Jews killed Jesus" thinking.

Fisher said:

Not really. It was anyone who couldn't contribute to the cause or could stand in the way of it. There were millions of Slavic people, disabled/handicapped, artists, political opponents, etc. killed. You might want to consider the "Jews control all the money" thinking outweighed "The Jews killed Jesus" thinking.

Click to expand...

Yes, the Nazi's Jews controlled the money was above the Jews killed Jesus. But the Nazi's aso viewed the Jews as an inferior race that might contaminate the pure Aryan race they strove to keep pure. This in my opinion topped the money and Jesus factors by a long shot. .

ChezC3 said:

Then I am sorry to say you are laying blame at the wrong door.

My position is nuanced but it is quite sound. Let me give an example.

In Islam, it is the religion which states apostacy brings a sentence of death. Now there are many factors, variabes, and conditions that must be met, a trial be had, but that is a tenet of the Faith. This is something others might find reprehensable. You can blame religion (Islam) for this.

The 72 virgin schpeal is a false interpretation. It is a perversion to the religion. Islam, the religion cannot be blamed for the perversion, the pervert must be blamed for using Islam and the false application of its tenets as a pretext for some sort of behavior which contadicts the actual tenets of the Faith, or making excuse for behavior which contradicts those tenets.

You must blame someone who throws up religion as a justification for actions which said religion rails against, you cannot blame religion, it is not the religion that is the motivating factor it is the misapplication, the misinterpretation whether purposeful or not which is the motivator, not the religion.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but my reasoning for not liking Islam is my own. I wouldn't call it a hatred. But the fact is that religion is the motivation for those who blow themselves up. End of story. They did it because of their faith. Same reason they wage a jihad. Their faith. I don't blame religion for their faults. I am stating that religion is their justification.

Visbek said:

German / Nazi anti-semitism was grounded in centuries of Christian hatred for the Jews. Europe has a long history of intermittent pogroms against Jews, based on religious hatred.

The Nazis did target other groups (iirc homosexuals and gypsies), but the primary motivation was religious. There really shouldn't be any doubt about that.



It's both.

Again there should be little doubt that Americans thought of the Native American tribes as unsophisticated savages, who lacked moral capacity because they were not Christian.

Click to expand...

Do you have ANY source material for that? Or is it based on something else? Like an anti-Christian sentiment?

You can wrap a nice neat little bow of "Christian antisemitism" on the whole Nazi package if you like, but it had nothing to do with Christianity. It was much less complicated than that. The same for the Native American genocide. WAY less complicated than the "evil Christians." It is sad that you are so willingly accepting a revised history of the world because you want to place the blame on one group because you can't cope with whatever pent up hate you have. Either that or you place the blame because you didn't pay attention in class. They were BOTH racially based. Let's start with the Nazis.

Nazi Germany experienced the highest rate of leaving the church in 1939. 90% of the SS claimed "God believing" but "no church affiliation." You can claim "The Christians did it! The Christians Did it!" all you want all over the land...but that doesn't make it true. If anything the state religion essentially became Nazism. Hitler was the God. At the end of the day though...it wasn't Christianity, but plain old racism. Nazi Germany and Hitler made their moves against Christians in order to force them to obey (showing restraint against Christianity was pivotal so as not to upset "the masses"). Clergymen were arrested, certain church groups were forbidden from attending schools, and even manipulated doctrines of the different denominations in order to play to the Nazi cause. There had been smackings of anti-Catholic behavior since Otto Von Bismark in the establishment of Germany as a nation.

Now let's address this crap about Native Americans. You want to blame Christianity again? Did you skip American history? There is a key term in most books called: "Manifest Destiny." Andrew Jackson was a huge fan of westward expansion. So were most Americans. Money to be had in western expansion fueled this lovely thing called "greed." You have heard of that right? To blame Christianity for the genocide is trying to place an overly complex reasoning onto an issue that requires a VERY easy explanation. As much as I am sure it would make you feel better to blame Christianity for the Native American Genocide...Ockham's razor still applies...and greed is the motivator. Look at the Spanish and other colonial powers in the New World. Working the native Americans to death on plantations (especially sugar) fueled their desire to go abroad and get slaves to work the land. Greed fueled the slave trade. Not religion.

Seriously man. Where exactly did you pick up these notions of "primary motivation?" Cite some sources.

Cyrylek said:

Hardly: the French Revolution was first (to my knowledge) manifestation of politicized atheism in history.

I am not trying to idealize religion, or whitewash the history of Christian civilization. I'll be the first to say that religion-based morality is deeply flawed, resting on a contradictory heap of taboos supported by nothing but the illogical appeal to authority.

But it is a morality, warts and all. Just as LowDown says, a barrier - however imperfect - to wholesale slaughter of innocents.

Put yourself into the shoes of an uneducated, simple Russian soldier in 1917. Everything is falling apart. The monarchy is gone; the war (unimaginable, bloodiest war ever, without reason or purpose) is lost - yet somehow never ending; out of sudden, there are hundreds of parties and groups, each claiming that their way is the best way...Your confusion is approaching its theoretical limits.

And one group in particular is making a remarkable claim: they have discovered the root of all evil: there's a "class" of people among us, hiding in the plain sight, that is blocking our predestined march toward beautiful, fat, pain-free future, and causing all the suffering. Get rid of them, every single one - and things will change.

What do you have to lose? "Only your immortal soul" - the priest says. But if there's no such thing as "immortal soul"...

Click to expand...

Very well said!

Medusa said:

qoran doesnt mention such jihad or 72 virgins . but their sects make them believe they will go to heaven with lots of houris if they kill the others and themselves

so religion somehow motivates them to blow up themselves

Click to expand...

True, but I think that is an example of religion being used as an excuse rather than being the real motivation. Do the people who preach that crap to the bombers ever participate as bombers themselves?

LowDown said:

In response to the frequent criticism brought against religion by new atheists that religion inspires people to kill each other:

View attachment 67145613

Frequently the argument takes the form of "there is something about religion that causes people to be violent." But there is always some dodge concerning the observation that there is apparently something about the lack of belief that causes people to be even more murderous.

In fact, there is something common to both believers and non believers that causes violence, and that is human nature.

Click to expand...

So killing in the name of religion never happened? How much killing is a religion worth?
Also, why nothing about killing done by Muslims? The Muslims have been killing themselves and others for centuries.

No doubt we are a violent species, we need only look at our cousins the Chimpanzee's to see our legacy.
Religion is one way we have expressed that violence though. There is no arguing that.

Medusa said:

qoran doesnt mention such jihad or 72 virgins . but their sects make them believe they will go to heaven with lots of houris if they kill the others and themselves

so religion somehow motivates them to blow up themselves

Click to expand...

That's a lot like how the christians in our country believe it is god's will to use the government to harass gays and other "sinners". I'm still waiting for the bible quote that says:

"Thou shalth use the government as your muscle to vote away the rights of sinners. It is your job to judge these people, not mine. ~ God"

Visbek said:

German / Nazi anti-semitism was grounded in centuries of Christian hatred for the Jews. Europe has a long history of intermittent pogroms against Jews, based on religious hatred.

The Nazis did target other groups (iirc homosexuals and gypsies), but the primary motivation was religious. There really shouldn't be any doubt about that.

Click to expand...

I disagree with the idea that the primary motivation was religious. The Nazi case was just an extreme example of divide and conquer politics like US liberals exercise today with their identity politics. I also disagree that the European persecution of Jews was primarily motivated by religious differences; Thomas Sowell has an excellent essay about the "despised minority" in Black Rednecks and White Liberals where he points out how that sort of discrimination has been applied to other groups at different times and places around the world.

stonewall50 said:

Explain to me how the HOLOCAUST was CHRISTIAN inspired please? I suggest you cite that.

Click to expand...

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." - Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf

And please explain to me, and cite, how the Native American genocide was inspired by Christianity, rather than the greed and western expansion of the European/white American culture?

Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you get to rewrite history.

Click to expand...

"European Christian invaders systematically murdered additional Aboriginal people, from the Canadian Arctic to South America. They used warfare, death marches, forced relocation to barren lands, destruction of their main food supply -- the Buffalo -- and poisoning. Some Europeans actually shot at Indians for target practice." Religious Tolerance

Diogenes said:

I disagree with the idea that the primary motivation was religious. The Nazi case was just an extreme example of divide and conquer politics like US liberals exercise today with their identity politics. I also disagree that the European persecution of Jews was primarily motivated by religious differences; Thomas Sowell has an excellent essay about the "despised minority" in Black Rednecks and White Liberals where he points out how that sort of discrimination has been applied to other groups at different times and places around the world.

Click to expand...

No..the Nazi hatred for the Jews was based on their financial acumen..they were crippling Germany..

wolfie said:

No..the Nazi hatred for the Jews was based on their financial acumen..they were crippling Germany..

Click to expand...

It was the Christians who put them into that position, early on, the Christians didn't want to deal with money, which they were giving to the poor and all that, the Jews had no problem with it and were therefore put in charge of the finances. They were very good at it and by the time the Christians realized what they had done, it was too late. Some people are their own worst enemies.

iguanaman said:

So killing in the name of religion never happened? How much killing is a religion worth?
Also, why nothing about killing done by Muslims? The Muslims have been killing themselves and others for centuries.

Click to expand...

Did you see the graph? Does it look like I'm saying it doesn't happen?

You beg the question of whether or not an absence of religion leads to even more death.

Cephus said:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." - Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf

Click to expand...

So you think that 1 quote proves it? Really? So tell me. How exactly does your theory that, "The Christians DID IT!" hold up when I inform you that...well...Adolf Hitler wasn't Christian and was in fact VERY hostile to the Christian faith. He went so far as to consider it the "Religion of the slaves." Anyway. Do you have any OTHER evidence to support your claim that "The Christians" are responsible for the holocaust? Or is this your standard "I hate Christians so I must blame them for every horrific thing that has ever happened" argument?

ps: I forgot to mention. "God" and "The Lord" don't HAVE to be the Judeo-Christian God.

"European Christian invaders systematically murdered additional Aboriginal people, from the Canadian Arctic to South America. They used warfare, death marches, forced relocation to barren lands, destruction of their main food supply -- the Buffalo -- and poisoning. Some Europeans actually shot at Indians for target practice." Religious Tolerance

Click to expand...

So the fact that they HAPPENED to be Christian makes their motives religious in nature? Did you read the document you sourced? Or just cherry pick it for a negative context against Christianity to exploit for your all too apparent disdain for Christians?

British occupied areas from Virginia northward. Hans Koning wrote:

"From the beginning, the Spaniards saw the native Americans as natural slaves, beasts of burden, part of the loot. When working them to death was more economical than treating them somewhat humanely, they worked them to death. The English, on the other hand, had no use for the native peoples. 5

Click to expand...

That is from YOUR document. It seems that BOTH the British and the Spanish seemed to think they were BEST used as a slaves to be worked to death. The English saw NO use for them...so they eradicated them. Economically driven slick. I could give you a half point for "anti-Christian" motive because they were obviously using religion as a justification for their actions...but if you honestly believe their MOTIVE was NOT greed...well you don't know much about European society from the 17th-Present day. Money makes the world go round, and colonial powers were ALL about the money. White man's burden of course played a role as well...but that is racism. Not necessarily "religion." One can be a racist and not be religious.

So you are 0/2 on that whole "The Christians did it!"

I got lol. Why don't we talk about the Christians and the Crusades!!! HA! At least you have some footing there. I hate to inform you...but since you are ALL about the facts and proof...you really need to understand that there are some concretes about history and rewriting it so you can make Christians the antagonist of every bad thing that happens DOESN'T work. We could talk about Pogroms, Inquisitions, Witch Burning, the Crusades, and all sorts of things that were ACTUALLY religiously motivated...but:

Justification (theology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Motivation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One of these things is not like the other. You seemed confused on that though.

LowDown said:

Did you see the graph? Does it look like I'm saying it doesn't happen?

You beg the question of whether or not an absence of religion leads to even more death.

Click to expand...

I think the Muslims being the MOST religious people on Earth give us the answer. Religions have been used as a excuse for atrocities since their beginnings. So has racism, nationalism, and a host of others. But don't leave out religion in that group.