• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Free Will

tacomancer said:
I don't find it so difficult to reconcile because I have no problem saying "I don't know the answer to that" when I don't. Frankly, I don't know the answer to most of these questions, but I find them amusing to think about. All I can say is that events in my life defy other attempts I have made to explain it as the probability of this sort of thing occurring consistently and often only when needed are so laughably small, its not worth concerning myself with.

I think there is something out there. I cannot honestly tell you a lot about it. I have my ideas and my ideas seem to bear fruit when I pursue this intelligence in that manner. In otherwords, what I seem to do works and works well, but I do not have any religion in any sense you would call structured or formalized (going to church annoys me actually because people seem so fake there). So again, "I don't know the answer to that :)"



My honest feeling is mostly annoyance. I want to put the past behind me and its rather difficult since there are still consequences that I have to deal with and its realistically going to take years before I put all the damned loose ends that were introduced into my life to bed (for example, the financial piece of this is very complicated and when I get my next mortgage for example, the bank is going to bring up the fact that I am already in a mortgage, stuff like that). That kind of stuff frustrates me to no end, especially given the stupidity of the whole situation and her stupidity for doing this to herself, the kids, and me on some insane and childish quest to find a type of happiness that exists for nobody.

Personally, I want to just be done with it, find some hot chick who I can love, who loves me, and do it the right way. Until then, I am forced to be in a position where I am just dealing with the problems introduced into my life by an event beyond my control. (source of my annoyance). Once I get into a position where I have taken control of my life back over, I will be at peace. Hope its sooner rather than later. But that's all I really want at this point, for it to be over so I can have something even better, and life won't move as fast as my emotions or brain.

Also there is a ****load of facebook level drama that keeps happening that I don't often mention here, but people just need to leave well enough alone and leave me alone. This damned woman is doing stuff like making proposals to take the kids down to my parents because my truck is cramped. She will keep a hotel and then drive the kids back on Sunday. WTF is that! I very politely turned her down, but she obviously wants emotional validation out of me and not to quite give me up. I just want her to go :( and her weakness is completely inappropriate and she needs to have the stones to face her own consequences, I will not do it for her. I just want to find the next person and for this next person to be freaking awesome.

Sorry about the rant, but its just so ****ing frustrating. I want my life to move on and do wonderful amazing cool stuff that makes me happy!

Sorry OP if I **** all over your thread :(
Click to expand...

This isn't way off topic because your free will is being stifled by obligation and duty. There is no such thing as a clean separation with children and finances. That stuff is going to be around for years, you simply need to get past the frustration and excess emotion part and reach the acceptance level. But unfortunately there is no forcing, it will come in time, though you can calm your mind down some by not dwelling on what you can't change.

She sounds like she wants your help but not your advice? That's actually typical of most people to some degree. My life, though it has been great certainly did not turn out anything close to what I wanted or thought it'd be. You got appreciate what you got, get what you can and roll with the flow. My whole world was recently (4 months ago) been turned upside down and I'm swimming in deep water the best I can and it is getting better. Just hang in there because in truth that's all you can do for now. Plan slowly and methodically and move thru the events as they come at you, then try to enjoy what you can in between, it's what I've been doing. :)
 
RGacky3 said:
Free will is a problem for everyone, not just religious people.

I suggest you read this thread http://www.debatepolitics.com/philo...compatible-determanism-and-indetermanism.html

Free will is incompatible with anything, determinism and indeterminism, with or without a God.
Click to expand...

I remember this thread and it left me thinking that thru rational and logical deduction there is no "free will" as we imagine it. Unless there is a God who can move thru time at will and make changes within a determined system without anyone knowing. But with the knowledge we do posses it doesn't appear possible that anything is random except quarks, which could mean if randomness occurs on a micro level it might translate to the macro?

Instinctively, I think most of us do believe that there is some sort of decision process akin to free will, regardless.
 
grip said:
I remember this thread and it left me thinking that thru rational and logical deduction there is no "free will" as we imagine it. Unless there is a God who can move thru time at will and make changes within a determined system without anyone knowing. But with the knowledge we do posses it doesn't appear possible that anything is random except quarks, which could mean if randomness occurs on a micro level it might translate to the macro?
Click to expand...

Except quarks are probably not random, they most likely just appear random because we don't understand how the system works.


Instinctively, I think most of us do believe that there is some sort of decision process akin to free will, regardless.
Click to expand...

I do believe that there is free will, but also that there is a level of "fate" within people's lives. Think of it like you have free will, but there are "error correcting codes" within the universe which will draw you to your fate, in spite of your free will.
 
BmanMcfly said:
Except quarks are probably not random, they most likely just appear random because we don't understand how the system works.
Click to expand...

That's the whole point to me is that we don't know enough about the universes origin, design and fate or even how life itself started, more less the human brain to determine accurately whether God, free will or choices exist.




I do believe that there is free will, but also that there is a level of "fate" within people's lives. Think of it like you have free will, but there are "error correcting codes" within the universe which will draw you to your fate, in spite of your free will.
Click to expand...

I think most of our decisions are predisposed towards a certain direction, but there are some that couldn't be predicted. And it's our inability to predict a decision that gives it the illusion of "free will", hence as far as we're concerned until we're able if ever to predetermine every choice made, free will does indeed appear to exist. And that's good enough for most of us.
 
grip said:
That's the whole point to me is that we don't know enough about the universes origin, design and fate or even how life itself started, more less the human brain to determine accurately whether God, free will or choices exist.






I think most of our decisions are predisposed towards a certain direction, but there are some that couldn't be predicted. And it's our inability to predict a decision that gives it the illusion of "free will", hence as far as we're concerned until we're able if ever to predetermine every choice made, free will does indeed appear to exist. And that's good enough for most of us.
Click to expand...

I like to think free will exists. My problem is this.

Me: "Ma, I got a ticket today because I rolled through a stop sign.

Mom: "Damn that sucks! Well, everything happens for a reason sweetie."

Now, I'm an adult and I'm only using my mother as an example because of how she believes. It was my "choice" of free will to roll through the stop sign instead of coming to a complete stop. Her comment serves, in my opinion, to only assuage my unhappiness at the situation. While I can honestly tell you it feels better to believe this ticket is all part of the grand scheme and everything will work out, I am troubled by the paradox of predestiny and free will existing simultaneously.
 
Knowledge=power said:
I like to think free will exists. My problem is this.

Me: "Ma, I got a ticket today because I rolled through a stop sign.

Mom: "Damn that sucks! Well, everything happens for a reason sweetie."

Now, I'm an adult and I'm only using my mother as an example because of how she believes. It was my "choice" of free will to roll through the stop sign instead of coming to a complete stop. Her comment serves, in my opinion, to only assuage my unhappiness at the situation. While I can honestly tell you it feels better to believe this ticket is all part of the grand scheme and everything will work out, I am troubled by the paradox of predestiny and free will existing simultaneously.
Click to expand...

Does it trouble you to the point of being paralyzed to think, feel, act or exist? If not, then you'll be ok because there are few if any absolutes in this life, except change.
 
grip said:
Does it trouble you to the point of being paralyzed to think, feel, act or exist? If not, then you'll be ok because there are few if any absolutes in this life, except change.
Click to expand...

I guess you're right.

It is only troubling when a very negative event, or a very positive event occcurs. Then, I start wondering...why? Which is where this problem comes into my mind the most.
 
Knowledge=power said:
I guess you're right.

It is only troubling when a very negative event, or a very positive event occcurs. Then, I start wondering...why? Which is where this problem comes into my mind the most.
Click to expand...


You can only know what you know, the rest is a guess at best. ;)
 
Knowledge=power said:
He's doing neither. Whether he makes you choose, or allows you to choose, either way, you would still be choosing and he would not know what you would choose. If he does not know the choice you will make, he is not omniscient. Simple logic.
Click to expand...
I think what you're describing is prescience.
 
grip said:
This isn't way off topic because your free will is being stifled by obligation and duty. There is no such thing as a clean separation with children and finances. That stuff is going to be around for years, you simply need to get past the frustration and excess emotion part and reach the acceptance level. But unfortunately there is no forcing, it will come in time, though you can calm your mind down some by not dwelling on what you can't change.

She sounds like she wants your help but not your advice? That's actually typical of most people to some degree. My life, though it has been great certainly did not turn out anything close to what I wanted or thought it'd be. You got appreciate what you got, get what you can and roll with the flow. My whole world was recently (4 months ago) been turned upside down and I'm swimming in deep water the best I can and it is getting better. Just hang in there because in truth that's all you can do for now. Plan slowly and methodically and move thru the events as they come at you, then try to enjoy what you can in between, it's what I've been doing. :)
Click to expand...

You are correct, there is nothing left at this point but anger. Unfortunately, that is the hardest one to process. It needs to be done though. Otherwise, I seem to be moving through these stages at a much faster pace than everyone thinks I am supposed to, but everyone is different I guess. My view is with my disorder, I have been fighting my emotions all my life and I simply got good at it. The anger lessens every time I realized that one or another aspect of my life is OK and I still have a say in it. That seems to be the theme I am discovering at least.

I hope your situation gets better. Strangely, even though, I am often not good at my own stuff, I tend to be very good when counseling others (I am like a bartender in real life to a lot of people, except I don't serve alcohol), so if you need anything, let me know.
 
Last edited:
tacomancer said:
You are correct, there is nothing left at this point but anger. Unfortunately, that is the hardest one to process. It needs to be done though. Otherwise, I seem to be moving through these stages at a much faster pace than everyone thinks I am supposed to, but everyone is different I guess. My view is with my disorder, I have been fighting my emotions all my life and I simply got good at it. The anger lessens every time I realized that one or another aspect of my life is OK and I still have a say in it. That seems to be the theme I am discovering at least. (Generally if I can find the pattern, I can force quick processing of the lingering stuff of the same theme, but hey, thats an advantage of my disorder :mrgreen:)
Click to expand...

If you're anything like me it'll come back on you more later when you don't expect it. I've thought I was well over certain stages only to have parts or all of them come back. That's why I say there's no time set or particular order for everything to go in. We are all different and process events in separate fashions. Also the more it happens the better or more numb you get. You seem to have a lot of confidence, which is a very good thing to have in these kind of life crisis. I think you'll come out of it wiser and stronger eventually.
 
grip said:
If you're anything like me it'll come back on you more later when you don't expect it. I've thought I was well over certain stages only to have parts or all of them come back. That's why I say there's no time set or particular order for everything to go in. We are all different and process events in separate fashions. Also the more it happens the better or more numb you get. You seem to have a lot of confidence, which is a very good thing to have in these kind of life crisis. I think you'll come out of it wiser and stronger eventually.
Click to expand...

With aspergers, its all about logic. Everything in my world is logic, numbers, and patterns (in other words, I am autistic, but extremely high functioning and with an extremely high IQ level). Once I find a reason its ok, I am done. It makes resolving things easy, but it also makes me vulnerable, if that reasoning finds new evidence or is disturbed in some manner, it can be thrown off kilter. To my fortune, the conclusions I seem to be coming to are not easily moved and are more based on long term observations about life that have emerged over 20 or 30 years. I am finding that some reasons to feel bad simply do not exist logically and once that happens, I immediately snap out of it (seriously, I can lose a complete rage instantly if the logic no longer supports it), never to go back in. So the house of cards my earlier beliefs were built on were in many ways shattered by this event, but the new foundation is stronger, however, my personality is now changing as a result (somehow I am turning extraverted for example (I find this very surprising)).

Its hard to explain my world sometimes because I don't think it always makes sense to a lot of people. But I think I do process things differently. Most people tend to experience multiple things at once and often fragmentedly and I am not capable of that. So I work through things in sequence, but again, it means when I am done, I am done.

Trying it back in to the real topic, this is also why I tend to view humanity in a markedly deterministic sense.
 
Last edited:
Knowledge=power said:
Thoughts?
Click to expand...

From a purely scientific standpoint, free will does still exist. A person still has control over their lives, regardless of the genetic predispositions. What's ignored are the ever present external factors. Genetics only determine how one may react to certain situations, but there are no guarantees that a person will react a certain way.
 
Surtr said:
From a purely scientific standpoint, free will does still exist. A person still has control over their lives, regardless of the genetic predispositions. What's ignored are the ever present external factors. Genetics only determine how one may react to certain situations, but there are no guarantees that a person will react a certain way.
Click to expand...

That isn't free will, genetic factors + external factors =/= free will. its still deterministic.
 
grip said:
I remember this thread and it left me thinking that thru rational and logical deduction there is no "free will" as we imagine it. Unless there is a God who can move thru time at will and make changes within a determined system without anyone knowing. But with the knowledge we do posses it doesn't appear possible that anything is random except quarks, which could mean if randomness occurs on a micro level it might translate to the macro?

Instinctively, I think most of us do believe that there is some sort of decision process akin to free will, regardless.
Click to expand...

I don't even think positing a God fixes that, because that would mean only that God has free will, rather than us.

Also EVEN with randomness (quantum world) you don't get free will. If you have a dice that is weighted and always hits a six, and one that is random (in this context) you would'nt say the latter is a step forward in the dice having free will ... the same with our brain working quantomly.

Of coarse instinctively we all believe in free will ... but it seams that it is logically impossible.
 
RGacky3 said:
I don't even think positing a God fixes that, because that would mean only that God has free will, rather than us.
Click to expand...

If God is inside us as the bible proposes, then that free will could also be in us. Conscious awareness may be the pivot point upon which the human mind gestates on it's moral capacity.

Also EVEN with randomness (quantum world) you don't get free will. If you have a dice that is weighted and always hits a six, and one that is random (in this context) you would'nt say the latter is a step forward in the dice having free will ... the same with our brain working quantomly.

Of coarse instinctively we all believe in free will ... but it seams that it is logically impossible.
Click to expand...

Randomness is nothing but a form of free will. We may make choices based on deciding influences but essentially it still means there's no final determining factor. A decision means we chose a path even though we had the option of going in any direction. That seems completely logical and plausible.
 
grip said:
If God is inside us as the bible proposes, then that free will could also be in us. Conscious awareness may be the pivot point upon which the human mind gestates on it's moral capacity.
Click to expand...

Or, if you look at the "many worlds" theory of QM, where each "choice" creates an entire universe, and so your life begins as a web of possibilities, your free will decides which path on this web of potential for your life. However, like a web there are intersections that are reached almost regardless of which choices you make previous. In this way, you have free will as an individual, but god plans out the web.


Randomness is nothing but a form of free will. We may make choices based on deciding influences but essentially it still means there's no final determining factor. A decision means we chose a path even though we had the option of going in any direction. That seems completely logical and plausible.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with this part.
 
Surtr said:
From a purely scientific standpoint, free will does still exist. A person still has control over their lives, regardless of the genetic predispositions. What's ignored are the ever present external factors. Genetics only determine how one may react to certain situations, but there are no guarantees that a person will react a certain way.
Click to expand...

Do you care to acknowledge the religious view of predestiny and free will existing simultaneously?
 
BmanMcfly said:
Or, if you look at the "many worlds" theory of QM, where each "choice" creates an entire universe, and so your life begins as a web of possibilities, your free will decides which path on this web of potential for your life. However, like a web there are intersections that are reached almost regardless of which choices you make previous. In this way, you have free will as an individual, but god plans out the web.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how involved multiverses or infinite dimensions are required but I do believe it's possible that god knows the future but isn't necessarily responsible for every decision made. A timeless being may see the whole thing like a film strip rolled out before their mind and be able to nudge or push events in a certain direction without actually making the choices? That way god could see how every cause and effect will unfurl and make minor adjustments to get an intended outcome. For me choice or free will for the most part exists, especially at certain cross road, decisions of my life. Most of what I do daily though is habitual and routine, being out of necessity. Though I could sit on the floor and never move a muscle if the will and notion occurred.
 
grip said:
If God is inside us as the bible proposes, then that free will could also be in us. Conscious awareness may be the pivot point upon which the human mind gestates on it's moral capacity.
Click to expand...

Those verses are clearly poetic ... it's obviously not a metaphysical claim.

But EVEN IF, that were true, it doesn't give you free will.

Randomness is nothing but a form of free will. We may make choices based on deciding influences but essentially it still means there's no final determining factor. A decision means we chose a path even though we had the option of going in any direction. That seems completely logical and plausible.
Click to expand...

No it isn't, randomness is randomness, not agency.

If you read the thread I posted before, it has nothing to do with deciding influences, it has to do with physical causality within the brain.

Here is my argument

"Determanism,
1. All events are caused by other events, ether simultaneous or past in their entirety.
2. Mental events are caused in their entirety by physical events in the brain, physical events in the brain cause movements in the body, in their entirety.
3. Choices are mental events which are caused in their entirety by physical events in the brain.
4. Those Choices are accompanied by movements in the body or other events in the brain, which themselves are caused entirely by events in the brain.
5. Thus there is no reason be believe, that these mental event cause anything, since the events that accompany them are entirely explained by events in the brain.
6. All events in the brain are material events that are in turn caused by other material events, either internally or by external stimuli.
7. Thus all mental events are materially caused.
8. Thus no choices can be made other than those which are physically determined.

Indetermanism,
Quantum physics is many times interpreted to mean that determinism is not true, meaning that events can happen without cause, or not necessarily but by probability. So let assume that quantum events in the brain make it a non deterministic mechanism. Now lets assume that a brain has 3 choices, A, B and C, and the brain chooses A, then we get in a time machine, go back to before the choice and it chooses C, and you do that 30 times, the brain chooses (A) 7 times, (B) 14 times and C (9) times, now lets say you do that again and it comes out (A) 12 times, (B) 4 times and (C) 14 times .... You havn't gotten any closer to free will, since the outcome is random, and all it means that the physical matter is non deterministic, not that the physical matter is CAUSED by some mental event such as intentionality or choice. "

So there CANNOT be any free will.
 
humbolt said:
Agreed. Is it possible to know that which doesn't exist?
Click to expand...

To imply that an all-powerful being was prescient, but not omniscient, would mean he is not all powerful, only psychic.

No, it is not possible to know that which doesn't exist lol.
 
RGacky3 said:
Those verses are clearly poetic ... it's obviously not a metaphysical claim.

But EVEN IF, that were true, it doesn't give you free will.
Click to expand...

I think it means literally, "the body is the container for a supernatural force." Or at least one that we don't understand yet.

And I believe it might be the essence of consciousness and decision making. Ipso factso, FREE WILL.
It's completely a subjective opinion at this level.

No it isn't, randomness is randomness, not agency.

If you read the thread I posted before, it has nothing to do with deciding influences, it has to do with physical causality within the brain.

Here is my argument

"Determanism,
1. All events are caused by other events, ether simultaneous or past in their entirety.
2. Mental events are caused in their entirety by physical events in the brain, physical events in the brain cause movements in the body, in their entirety.
3. Choices are mental events which are caused in their entirety by physical events in the brain.
4. Those Choices are accompanied by movements in the body or other events in the brain, which themselves are caused entirely by events in the brain.
5. Thus there is no reason be believe, that these mental event cause anything, since the events that accompany them are entirely explained by events in the brain.
6. All events in the brain are material events that are in turn caused by other material events, either internally or by external stimuli.
7. Thus all mental events are materially caused.
8. Thus no choices can be made other than those which are physically determined.

Indetermanism,
Quantum physics is many times interpreted to mean that determinism is not true, meaning that events can happen without cause, or not necessarily but by probability. So let assume that quantum events in the brain make it a non deterministic mechanism. Now lets assume that a brain has 3 choices, A, B and C, and the brain chooses A, then we get in a time machine, go back to before the choice and it chooses C, and you do that 30 times, the brain chooses (A) 7 times, (B) 14 times and C (9) times, now lets say you do that again and it comes out (A) 12 times, (B) 4 times and (C) 14 times .... You havn't gotten any closer to free will, since the outcome is random, and all it means that the physical matter is non deterministic, not that the physical matter is CAUSED by some mental event such as intentionality or choice. "

So there CANNOT be any free will.
Click to expand...

That's all theory and unsubstantiated.

I do agree that all mental events are materially caused but it doesn't exclude that there is free agency involved in a manner yet undiscovered. Science has far from concluded that conscious license does not exist. The original big bang might of have been out of choice because we sure don't know what kind of physics existed prior to that event. Thus QM does not have all the answers.
 
Knowledge=power said:
To imply that an all-powerful being was prescient, but not omniscient, would mean he is not all powerful, only psychic.

No, it is not possible to know that which doesn't exist lol.
Click to expand...
Heh. That would seem to make prescience impossible. It's possible to predict something, but impossible to know it because it hasn't happened. Where's Edgar Cayce when we need him?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom