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Evolution vs. Creationism[W:2571, 3239]

Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

You lost me at "creation myth," since the word "myth" implies that the story is untrue.

It's an implication that it's a cultural story passed over time that is not drawn from research or evidence. That is all factually applicable to creationism. Would you like to claim otherwise?
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Genesis 1:27

... is a biggie in my humble opinion. Unless you try to take the apologetic view that evolution was guided by a god, the process of natural selection leading to evolution of species dispels the idea that man was created in God's image. There's too thorough of an explanation for the evolution of homo sapiens and too many extinct, but still fully sentient hominid species -- homo erectus, homo neanderthalensis, etc. -- for that idea to be plausible. Even non-extinct species like today's chimpanzees and orangutangs being able to show that they are capable of having an idea of self and displaying rudimentary consciousness is troublesome to the idea that we are the only ones created, instead of having inherited those traits from a common ancestor.

Also gets me, as I have posted before, that there's still the idea that 'male and female' were created, and were created for each other. Knowing several intersex-by-birth (~1% of live human births have noticeable degrees of androgyny) and also transgendered people, and more importantly, a somewhat lukewarm understanding of the mechanisms behind those conditions, turns that 'male and female' statement into very over-simplified version of what actually goes down in nature.

Every person on earth is a result of one male and one female and some act of reproduction. Thus, male and female are the norms, and everything else is an outlier.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

It's an implication that it's a cultural story passed over time that is not drawn from research or evidence. That is all factually applicable to creationism. Would you like to claim otherwise?

It also implies that the story is false. You should have chosen a better word... or perhaps the implication was intentional. I can't speak to your motives.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

It also implies that the story is false. You should have chosen a better word... or perhaps the implication was intentional. I can't speak to your motives.

I think my motives were quite plain in my first post. Creationism and evolution don't belong in the same conversation. It's insulting to science to put them in the same conversation. One is a fact-based theory and the other is, indeed, a cultural myth.

I would still like you to tell me why creationism isn't a myth.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

It's impossible that any god would have created Evolution as we know it... that would mean that the god did not know what Evolution would create and what what it would make extinct.

No it doesn't. Evolution may be considered deterministic. If God understood cause and effect to a deep enough extent, he could simply set the wheels in motion and watch His creation unfold.

I know that if I plant a sunflower seed, I'm going to get a sunflower. I know that, and I'm not God. How much more could God know?
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

I think my motives were quite plain in my first post. Creationism and evolution don't belong in the same conversation. It's insulting to science to put them in the same conversation. One is a fact-based theory and the other is, indeed, a cultural myth.

I would still like you to tell me why creationism isn't a myth.

Insulting to science? I didn't know "science" was sentient and could be insulted. You'll have to explain that one.

Why is creationism not a myth? The creation story is true, therefore it isn't mythical.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

Insulting to science? I didn't know "science" was sentient and could be insulted. You'll have to explain that one.

Why is creationism not a myth? The creation story is true, therefore it isn't mythical.

Ok, I'll rephrase: insulting to the scientific community. The scientific community goes through an absolute meat grinder of a process to come to the conclusions it does and understand the world around us.

To act as though a creation myth is on par with that sort of process is insulting to all of the people who dedicated their lives to testing their own hypothesis so rigorously that they were practically trying to prove themselves wrong.

How exactly is it "true?" You must be able to offer some sort of reason why something is true. And that reason must also be true ("God says so" doesn't count, since people have wildly differing opinions on what their god supposedly says, or what god even is).

It might be something you believe, but that doesn't make it "true."

If you cannot tell me what makes it "true" except to offer more baseless claims, I simply have no reason to believe you.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

Every person on earth is a result of one male and one female and some act of reproduction. Thus, male and female are the norms, and everything else is an outlier.
No, 'normal' is what commonly occurs. The usual, average or typical state. Nature and human biology normally produces many individuals that do not conform to either 'male' or 'female' sexes. We see this in nature too, where many species don't even have a male/female dichotomy. In nature, androgynous individuals and same-sex activities are normal in most highly complex mammalian species. Just because 'successful reproduction' is how that species survives from one generation to the next, it does not mean that that is exactly how every being on this planet is born or is wired.

It's a very ignorant and uneducated view of the world but still very understandable, because there would have been no way for the numerous authors of the Bible to have gained that understanding. An ancient Jewish civilization that still believed the Earth was flat or that people died of evil spirits rather than germs did not have the technology or knowledge to understand either this or even basic ideas of how the world works. Humans were still centuries away from establishing this as fact.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

Ok, I'll rephrase: insulting to the scientific community. The scientific community goes through an absolute meat grinder of a process to come to the conclusions it does and understand the world around us.

To act as though a creation myth is on par with that sort of process is insulting to all of the people who dedicated their lives to testing their own hypothesis so rigorously that they were practically trying to prove themselves wrong.

How exactly is it "true?" You must be able to offer some sort of reason why something is true. And that reason must also be true ("God says so" doesn't count, since people have wildly differing opinions on what their god supposedly says, or what god even is).

It might be something you believe, but that doesn't make it "true."

If you cannot tell me what makes it "true" except to offer more baseless claims, I simply have no reason to believe you.

If you continue to call creationism a "myth," I'm going to have to consider you belligerent and refrain from debating you on this topic in order to keep the peace around here. However, I do like to have grown-up debates so if you don't mind, just call it something less offensive. "Creation story," for example, would be fine.

Now, to your counterpoint.

Truth and perception are separate. Our understanding of something does not make it any more true. Evidence does not create truth, it illuminates truth. That said, it logically follows that whether we have evidence for something, or whether we lack evidence for something, has no bearing on whether it is true.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

No, 'normal' is what commonly occurs. The usual, average or typical state. Nature and human biology normally produces many individuals that do not conform to either 'male' or 'female' sexes. We see this in nature too, where many species don't even have a male/female dichotomy. In nature, androgynous individuals and same-sex activities are normal in most highly complex mammalian species. Just because 'successful reproduction' is how that species survives from one generation to the next, it does not mean that that is exactly how every being on this planet is born or is wired.

It's a very ignorant and uneducated view of the world but still very understandable, because there would have been no way for the numerous authors of the Bible to have gained that understanding. An ancient Jewish civilization that still believed the Earth was flat or that people died of evil spirits rather than germs did not have the technology or knowledge to understand either this or even basic ideas of how the world works. Humans were still centuries away from establishing this as fact.

In other words.... It's quite normal to come across abnormalities.

I don't disagree with that statement. Abnormalities are still, however, abnormalities.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

If you continue to call creationism a "myth," I'm going to have to consider you belligerent and refrain from debating you on this topic in order to keep the peace around here. However, I do like to have grown-up debates so if you don't mind, just call it something less offensive. "Creation story," for example, would be fine.

Now, to your counterpoint.

Truth and perception are separate. Our understanding of something does not make it any more true. Evidence does not create truth, it illuminates truth. That said, it logically follows that whether we have evidence for something, or whether we lack evidence for something, has no bearing on whether it is true.

How is it offensive? How does "story" imply this supposed truth any more than "myth" does? At least "myth" gives it a cultural significance. Anything can be a "story."

You have chosen to think a word is offensive for no discernible reason, and you totally can't even begin to deal with that. I would hardly call what you're doing a "grown-up debate." And sorry, but I'm not all that interested in what you prefer.

I don't think you do actually find it offensive. I think you find it offensive that I am not giving creationism and scientific theory equal footing.

Yes, but if we have two competing things and only one has evidence, and said evidence tends to exclude the other, it logically follows that I have no good reason to believe the other one.

I notice you can't tell me why it's true, and you're instead trying to drown the word in meaningless and convoluted sophistry.
 
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Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

If you continue to call creationism a "myth," I'm going to have to consider you belligerent and refrain from debating you on this topic in order to keep the peace around here. However, I do like to have grown-up debates so if you don't mind, just call it something less offensive. "Creation story," for example, would be fine.

Now, to your counterpoint.

Truth and perception are separate. Our understanding of something does not make it any more true. Evidence does not create truth, it illuminates truth. That said, it logically follows that whether we have evidence for something, or whether we lack evidence for something, has no bearing on whether it is true.

Well, how would you classify it ?.............It may be the "truth" , but how would anyone be aware of that in a world of competing "stories" ?.................
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

How is it offensive? How does "story" imply this supposed truth any more than "myth" does? At least "myth" gives it a cultural significance. Anything can be a "story."

You have chosen to think a word is offensive for no discernible reason, and you totally can't even begin to deal with that. I would hardly call what you're doing a "grown-up debate." And sorry, but I'm not all that interested in what you prefer.

I don't think you do actually find it offensive. I think you find it offensive that I am not giving creationism and scientific theory equal footing.

Yes, but if we have two competing things and only one has evidence or is even based in physical reality, it logically follows that no one has any good reason to believe the other one.

I notice you can't tell me why it's true, and you're instead trying to drown the word in meaningless and convoluted sophistry.

No, I'm being quite sincere. "Myth" is offensive to me. Of course you get the benefit of the doubt that you didn't intend to be offensive, but nonetheless, I will refrain from using derogatory terms against what you believe to be true if you will extend me the same courtesy. That agreement is essential to having a civilized debate.

Myth:
a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism — Orde Coombs>

b : an unfounded or false notion

As to my argument... it's really not that complicated, though perhaps I did a poor job of explaining it. I'm not really saying anything controversial or anything that scientists would disagree with.

The truth simply exists. Human beings, being naturally curious, try to discern the truth. One of the means we have for discerning the truth is evidence-gathering. However, whether we have evidence or lack it, the truth is simply the truth... it does not change.

Why does this matter?

Evidence for or against God does not determine whether God exists. That's bullet-proof and simple logic.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

Well, how would you classify it ?.............It may be the "truth" , but how would anyone be aware of that in a world of competing "stories" ?.................

I would say this: rather than assuming that the creation story is unfounded or false, which is implied by the word "myth," let's take a neutral stance and assume that it could be either true or false.

Thus, the word "story" works better.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

Evidence for or against God does not determine whether God exists. That's bullet-proof and simple logic.

Who said anything about evidence for or against god?

Anyway, the point is that if there evidence for one thing and not for another, I have no reason to believe another. So far you can't offer me any reason why I should. And this entire thing started because you claimed creationism is "true." Well, there's no evidence saying so. You may say that's what you believe, but when you say something is true, you better be able to explain why.

So unless you can, I'm not particular interested in continuing to dunk the word "truth" in the linguistic bath tub.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

No, I'm being quite sincere. "Myth" is offensive to me. Of course you get the benefit of the doubt that you didn't intend to be offensive, but nonetheless, I will refrain from using derogatory terms against what you believe to be true if you will extend me the same courtesy. That agreement is essential to having a civilized debate.



As to my argument... it's really not that complicated, though perhaps I did a poor job of explaining it. I'm not really saying anything controversial or anything that scientists would disagree with.

The truth simply exists. Human beings, being naturally curious, try to discern the truth. One of the means we have for discerning the truth is evidence-gathering. However, whether we have evidence or lack it, the truth is simply the truth... it does not change.

Why does this matter?

Evidence for or against God does not determine whether God exists. That's bullet-proof and simple logic.

Correct. But, THE "Truth" seems to be something you know. How did you come to know "it" ?................
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

I would say this: rather than assuming that the creation story is unfounded or false, which is implied by the word "myth," let's take a neutral stance and assume that it could be either true or false.

Thus, the word "story" works better.

Ok. But if we suspend disbelief in the Creation "story", don't all other "stories" then get elevated by this "neutral" status ?...............
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

Who said anything about evidence for or against god?

Anyway, the point is that if there evidence for one thing and not for another, I have no reason to believe another. So far you can't offer me any reason why I should. And this entire thing started because you claimed creationism is "true." Well, there's no evidence saying so. You may say that's what you believe, but when you say something is true, you better be able to explain why.

So unless you can, I'm not particular interested in continuing to dunk the word "truth" in the linguistic bath tub.

Dunked in the linguistic bathtub? I've never heard that saying before, but I love it. I'm going to steal that from you!

Words are what separate us from the animals. Skill with words is, I believe, the very root of human intelligence.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

Who said anything about evidence for or against god?

Anyway, the point is that if there evidence for one thing and not for another, I have no reason to believe another. So far you can't offer me any reason why I should. And this entire thing started because you claimed creationism is "true." Well, there's no evidence saying so. You may say that's what you believe, but when you say something is true, you better be able to explain why.

So unless you can, I'm not particular interested in continuing to dunk the word "truth" in the linguistic bath tub.

Dunked in the linguistic bathtub? I've never heard that saying before, but I love it. I'm going to steal that from you!

Words are what separate us from the animals. Skill with words is, I believe, the very root of human intelligence.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

Ok. But if we suspend disbelief in the Creation "story", don't all other "stories" then get elevated by this "neutral" status ?...............

Sure. I just don't like the implication that comes with the word "myth." It implies that the story is false and, since we're having a creation vs evolution debate, such a stance is hostile.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

Correct. But, THE "Truth" seems to be something you know. How did you come to know "it" ?................

That's quite a rabbit hole to wander down, but I'll try to oblige.

I know because the Bible tells me so.

Q: How do I know the Bible is correct?

A: Because I know Jesus is correct.

Q: How do I know that Jesus is correct?

A: Because I know good from evil, and when I read the story of Jesus, I know that what I read is the embodiment of good.
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

Sure. I just don't like the implication that comes with the word "myth." It implies that the story is false and, since we're having a creation vs evolution debate, such a stance is hostile.

The root of the problem lies in that there are 3 religions claiming to know the "Truth" about the "One" god: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam........Are they all correct, and if not, how do you make the right choice between these 3 competing "Truths" ?....................
 
Re: Evolution vs. Creationism

That's quite a rabbit hole to wander down, but I'll try to oblige.

I know because the Bible tells me so.

Q: How do I know the Bible is correct?

A: Because I know Jesus is correct.

Q: How do I know that Jesus is correct?

A: Because I know good from evil, and when I read the story of Jesus, I know that what I read is the embodiment of good.

Which sounds logical, except didn't Jesus call the Phoenician woman a swine merely because she wasn't a Hebrew ? Doesn't sound too "good", if you know what I mean.........................
 
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