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Meaning or happiness

Evenstar said:
Which would you choose? a life of happiness or a life of meaning?
Consider this: to be truly happy, a man must live absolutely in the present. And with no thought of what's gone before, and no thought of what lies ahead. But if one chooses a life of meaning, one is condemned to wallow in the past and obsess about the future. A life of meaning, that is when one's life influences the universe around it for the greater good, cannot be obtained if one lives for himself in the present. But one must consider the past and the future if living for the good of others.

If choosing between happiness and meaning, what would you choose and why?
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One of my biggest criticisms of much of the population is the inability and/or lack of effort to analyze decisions, especially prior to making them. Both cause/effect and cost/reward take little more than simple reasoning. Clearly, there are pros and cons to both focusing on meaning and happiness. However, these two are clearly not disjoint. For example, I am both happy with my passion for mathematics and being an educator. To maximize the overall positive, you should search for the solution which gives you the best of both worlds.

On a related note, I recommend a career plan by junior year of high school. If you choose a path requiring higher education then you have time to choose the education which will benefit that career the most. Otherwise, if you choose a path requiring only a diploma, you really aren't planning too far out.
 
Tigger said:
Oh? Then what's your grand philosophy of life, or are you just claiming that I'm lying about some portion of that.
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My grand philosophy is in my signature. I disagree with your assessment of your philosophy; specifically, your "universal truths" are invented self-serving crap, but we needn't have that debate.
 
ecofarm said:
I disagree with your assessment of your philosophy; specifically, your "univeral truths" are invented self-serving crap, but we needn't have that debate.
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Let's even stipulate, for the sake of discussion only, that the "universal truths" that I believe in are self-serving crap. So what? They may not give meaning to your life but they do give meaning to mine. They are what I believe. If that gives my life meaning, so what? I'm not telling you that you have to believe the same thing that I do. I mught suggest it, but I have no abiliby to compel you to agree with me or do it.

If I choose to follow a particular spiritual or philosophical path, which happens to disregard the idea of happiness, what is that to You? Does it keep You from living a life of carefree happiness and joy?
 
Tigger said:
Let's even stipulate, for the sake of discussion only, that the "universal truths" that I believe in are self-serving crap. So what? They may not give meaning to your life but they do give meaning to mine. They are what I believe. If that gives my life meaning, so what? I'm not telling you that you have to believe the same thing that I do. I mught suggest it, but I have no abiliby to compel you to agree with me or do it.

If I choose to follow a particular spiritual or philosophical path, which happens to disregard the idea of happiness, what is that to You? Does it keep You from living a life of carefree happiness and joy?
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This isn't about you or I.

This is about the BS you present as philosophy and 'universal truths'. Tell you what, how about you list these universal truths, then you can explain how they mean that there should be the death penalty for being gay or smoking pot and how they support woman beating. Then you can tell us about the faeries that enjoy entertaining you because you're one of the few people who can see them, or how The Fates are beyond the control of even Gods. Finally, explain how these universal truths lead you to refuse to be a part of the justice system, preferring to be killed than arrested and prepared to fight about it.

That last part is really important, if "Law and Order" is among your "truths".
 
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Preferably both at the same time, but I have found that meaningfulness creates its own kind of happiness, and not what seems to generally qualify as "happy". If I had to choose one or the other, meaningfulness, because (imo) "happiness" is fleeting and very situational.
 
Evenstar said:
yeah that's the nature of philosophy. And yet here you are.
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Its a loaded question that I have seen before and sometimes used by professors in philosophy classes. Most people consider the meaning to life to be happiness. But meaning can take on other shapes. A life of meaning would involve happiness as a inseparable attribute but not the sole reason for meaning. A life of happiness infers some type of meaning to your life that made you happy. And in circles we go as we try to define things that are subjective and not uniform. The idea is to get you to think about emotions and their interaction with rational thought. There really is no correct answer it is just a exercise for the students to engage in. Since I already have thought about your question and gave it much thought (years ago) I recognize that the answer is meaningless. No one is going to agree on the answers since the answer can only be subjective. What is a meaningful life to me is not to you and what is happiness to me may not be too you.
 
ecofarm said:
This isn't about you or I.
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That much you are correct about.

ecofarm said:
This is about the BS you present as philosophy and 'universal truths'. Tell you what, how about you list these universal truths, then you can explain how they mean that there should be the death penalty for being gay or smoking pot and how they support woman beating.
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I could sit here for hours on end listing them. I don't have that much time, nor are you really interested in seeing any part of the list, so let's not waste each other's time. I will say this: The first and most important one is this....

"Right and Wrong are unmoving, unchanging concepts which there is no grey area between. What is Right is never Wrong and what is Wrong can never be Right."

ecofarm said:
Then you can tell us about.... how The Fates are beyond the control of even Gods.
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Fate is a Universal Power of its own. It does not answer to any God or mortal. It never has and never will. The threads of our lives, which are spun and cut by the Fates at the moment of our birth cannot be changed by man or God. This does not mean that we don't have any choices in life; just that we are bound to experience certain things in our lives, no matter what decisions or choices we make, or how hard we try to resist some of these things occuring.

ecofarm said:
Finally, explain how these universal truths lead you to refuse to be a part of the justice system, preferring to be killed than arrested and prepared to fight about it. That last part is really important, if "Law and Order" is among your "truths".
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Yes, Law and Order are a large part of the Universal Truths. What is also part of them is the ideal that a poisoned tree can never bear good fruit. Thusly, a corrupt and unethical government, which holds to no morals or values cannot, by definition, be capable of enforcing Law and Order or handing down Justice. Therefore, allowing oneself to be brought before such a government and exposing oneself to its false justice is not only foolish but Wrong in and of itself.
 
Evenstar said:
Yes, even while living in obscurity, a life influences other lives in some way which has the whole "ripple effect" on the world around it. Even the tiniest change can cause larger effects, and over time, small events accumulate into a large event. And without any particular 'small event,' the larger outcome would be different. Like a missing piece of a puzzle or a distant direct ancestor being removed from the family tree. And yet people in general seem to fight insignificance as if it's a negative. Personally, I would choose happiness and not worry about meaning. Very few organisms evolve far enough into consciousness to be plagued with such meaningless quandaries. :2razz:
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Bingo! That's it. That's what I chose years ago.

There was a time when I thought success was accumulation of wealth and power. I worked hard and I accumulated. Long story short, I found what I was looking for, but I wasn't through looking. It took me a while to figure it out. Wealth and power does not make me happy. It wasn't a particularly great experience discovering that I'd hitched my wagon to the wrong horse. After a career change, a move and a divorce and giving up damn near everything I discovered that I still didn't know what the **** I was doing. LOL! But, I didn't want to go back.

After much self discovery, meditation, meeting 4 people by chance, at different times along the way, who truly projected a presence of calm and peace so palpable that you could not ignore it. I knew I wanted that. I don't have it yet, but I am most happy being on that path. These people by the way were a Roman Catholic priest who had been taken hostage in Beirut and held captive for 564 days; the owner of a metaphysical book store, a Roman Catholic num who was my divorce counselor, 2 Buddhist monks (at different times and places). None are particularly unique with the exception of Father Jenco and his experience being chained to a radiator and blind folded for almost 2 years. None were/are wealthy or powerful, but all found great happiness by living in the present. I still want that.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Its a loaded question that I have seen before and sometimes used by professors in philosophy classes. Most people consider the meaning to life to be happiness. But meaning can take on other shapes. A life of meaning would involve happiness as a inseparable attribute but not the sole reason for meaning. A life of happiness infers some type of meaning to your life that made you happy. And in circles we go as we try to define things that are subjective and not uniform. The idea is to get you to think about emotions and their interaction with rational thought. There really is no correct answer it is just a exercise for the students to engage in. Since I already have thought about your question and gave it much thought (years ago) I recognize that the answer is meaningless. No one is going to agree on the answers since the answer can only be subjective. What is a meaningful life to me is not to you and what is happiness to me may not be too you.
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so in other words, it's subjective. No kidding.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Bingo! That's it. That's what I chose years ago.

There was a time when I thought success was accumulation of wealth and power. I worked hard and I accumulated. Long story short, I found what I was looking for, but I wasn't through looking. It took me a while to figure it out. Wealth and power does not make me happy. It wasn't a particularly great experience discovering that I'd hitched my wagon to the wrong horse. After a career change, a move and a divorce and giving up damn near everything I discovered that I still didn't know what the **** I was doing. LOL! But, I didn't want to go back.

After much self discovery, meditation, meeting 4 people by chance, at different times along the way, who truly projected a presence of calm and peace so palpable that you could not ignore it. I knew I wanted that. I don't have it yet, but I am most happy being on that path. These people by the way were a Roman Catholic priest who had been taken hostage in Beirut and held captive for 564 days; the owner of a metaphysical book store, a Roman Catholic num who was my divorce counselor, 2 Buddhist monks (at different times and places). None are particularly unique with the exception of Father Jenco and his experience being chained to a radiator and blind folded for almost 2 years. None were/are wealthy or powerful, but all found great happiness by living in the present. I still want that.
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I know what you're talking about. Some people can disconnect themselves from the universe; or merge with it in such way that they are no longer afraid.
 
Evenstar said:
I know what you're talking about. Some people can disconnect themselves from the universe; or merge with it in such way that they are no longer afraid.
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Exactly. Long, long after I left the idea of organized religion and then Christianity behind I had an experience that was most unusual for me. It was unexpected and so far I haven't come close to repeating it. I experienced what Zen Buddhists call satori. I had a brief moment of understanding my true nature.

At the time I wasn't a Buddhist. Didn't care about Buddhism or my true nature or anything related. It was on a Sunday. I had been studying for finals in grad school for about 3 days and my mind was completely crammed with crap. The point is I was beyond being able to think. We've all been there. I took a break,went outside and sat by a small pond. No one else was around, nothing distracting me. There was the pond, me, cat tails blowing in a light breeze, a few ducks on the water and a fish. My brain was so full that thinking was not possible and I didn't want to think. It was in essence, I now believe, the same as having an empty mind, the ultimate goal of meditation. At the time I had never meditated.

For a moment with tremendous clarity I suddenly understood that pond, breeze, ducks, the fish and everything were one, seamless. No separation. I can't do the experience justice in trying to explain it. It was knowing not feeling. I understood.

Obviously I've never forgotten the experience. Years later I became a Zen Buddhist and only after that did I discover what it was that happened to me years before. A window opened and I saw with great clarity. I have not yet been able to replicate the experience.
 
to me there is no difference. If I have a meaningful life I would be happy because I know I made a difference. I chose wildlife biology as my career because I knew I was good at it but also because I also knew I would be able to make a difference. To bad i never got a real chance, but oh well.
 
I'll take comfort and joy for one thousand.

Double Jeopardy! Please listen to the excerpt from this song from 1966: Ba-da-da-da-da da-da feelin' groovy.

What is my biggest goal in life?

Correct!
 
Evenstar said:
Which would you choose? a life of happiness or a life of meaning?
Consider this: to be truly happy, a man must live absolutely in the present. And with no thought of what's gone before, and no thought of what lies ahead. But if one chooses a life of meaning, one is condemned to wallow in the past and obsess about the future. A life of meaning, that is when one's life influences the universe around it for the greater good, cannot be obtained if one lives for himself in the present. But one must consider the past and the future if living for the good of others.

If choosing between happiness and meaning, what would you choose and why?
Click to expand...
I don't accept the exclusivity there, but if I were forced to choose, then meaning every time.
 
Risky Thicket said:
For a moment with tremendous clarity I suddenly understood that pond, breeze, ducks, the fish and everything were one, seamless. No separation. I can't do the experience justice in trying to explain it. It was knowing not feeling. I understood.

Obviously I've never forgotten the experience. Years later I became a Zen Buddhist and only after that did I discover what it was that happened to me years before. A window opened and I saw with great clarity. I have not yet been able to replicate the experience.
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My own experience was not the same as yours, but can be described (in my mind) simply as acceptance. Acceptance of the world as it is, people the way they are, and myself as I am, without having a need to change anything. It happened over a process that took about a month, and I could sense it, but didn't understand it at the time. I found that my irritation with things, people, and circumstances essentially just faded away, and that I can be content, where I never was before. This isn't to say that things don't still get on my nerves, but that they don't sway the "inner" me anymore. Just minor annoyances.
 
d0gbreath said:
I'll take comfort and joy for one thousand.

Double Jeopardy! Please listen to the excerpt from this song from 1966: Ba-da-da-da-da da-da feelin' groovy.

What is my biggest goal in life?

Correct!
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Slow down, you move too fast, you've got to make the morning last
Just kickin' down the cobble-stones, lookin' for fun and feelin' groovy

Feeling groovy

Hello lamp-post, what's cha knowing, I've come to watch your flowers growin'
Ain't cha got no rhymes for me, do-it-do-do, feelin' groovy
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Great song.

Whatever happened to "groovy?" No one uses that word any longer. Don't people like feelin' groovy? Does anyone even know what it means any more?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Great song.

Whatever happened to "groovy?" No one uses that word any longer. Don't people like feelin' groovy? Does anyone even know what it means any more?
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I think groovy has been replaced by cool beans. :lol:
 
lizzie said:
I think groovy has been replaced by cool beans. :lol:
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That's a new one on me. Let's see...

cool beans

A slang term that actually began it's use in the late 60's/early 70's. Popularized by the pop culture of the time. Used to describe something very favorable or pleasing. Great. Very nice.
Cheech: Hey man, look at this car made out of weed!
Chong: Oh cool beans, man!
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That doesn't sound like the same thing. Feeling groovy was the diametric opposite of up tight.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Great song.

Whatever happened to "groovy?" No one uses that word any longer. Don't people like feelin' groovy? Does anyone even know what it means any more?
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Maybe it's because no one feels as if they are in the groove anymore.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Maybe it's because no one feels as if they are in the groove anymore.
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That's just sad.
I suppose the question of whether language changes because social values change, or whether it drives social values is an issue for another thread.
 
Dittohead not! said:
That's just sad.
I suppose the question of whether language changes because social values change, or whether it drives social values is an issue for another thread.
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That's an excellent question. :thumbs: If you start a thread, please let me know.
 
Meaning. Without it life is......well......meaningless. :shrug:
 
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