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A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?[W: 143]

Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Blackdog said:
Big difference between "unproven" and "unjustifiable." Lots of things in the Bible have been researched and found to be true. Has nothing to do with any kind of justification.
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None of those things have anything to do with supernatural claims though. If a claim is unproven, unjustifiable and lacks any evidence that it's so, why in the world would someone believe it?
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Cephus said:
None of those things have anything to do with supernatural claims though. If a claim is unproven, unjustifiable and lacks any evidence that it's so, why in the world would someone believe it?
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Unjustifiable: impossible to excuse, pardon, or justify

Unproven: not established as true by evidence or demonstration unproven allegations

They are not even remotely the same and do not apply to the Bible equally. Nothing in the Bible needs to be "justified." There are things however that could be proven or in your case need to be proved.

You are using a term negatively to disparage rather than explain.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Cephus said:
Because the parts they want to be true are utterly unjustifiable?
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Because Spunky's not looking for a debate.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

NoC_T said:
Because Spunky's not looking for a debate.
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On the contrary I was hoping to find a few "miracles are parables" christians to discuss their belief system.

But thanks for being a dick, this wasn't even your thread.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

spanky said:
On the contrary I was hoping to find a few "miracles are parables" christians to discuss their belief system.

But thanks for being a dick, this wasn't even your thread.
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It's not so bad being a known quantity, is it?

At the very least, whatever other drawbacks your content reveals, your intent need suffer no ambiguation.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

grip said:
Thought I was in an adult debate.
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Oh, "what God" was a serious answer?
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

NoC_T said:
No one with an intelligence level that surpasses that of pond life, will rise to this.
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If I may add...

The act of religious belief alone is a mental barricade that restricts people from any type of useful thought after they erroneously choose to believe in a god.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Paralogic said:
If I may add...

The act of religious belief alone is a mental barricade that restricts people from any type of useful thought after they erroneously choose to believe in a god.
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This is absolutely not true. Your statement is just an untrue blanket statement meant to disparage people of faith. I mean you could have said some people, and I would agree with that. I would also have pointed out the same can be said for any extremist element of any large group including atheists.

I mean do you have anything to offer outside of untrue blanket statements?
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Blackdog said:
I mean do you have anything to offer outside of untrue blanket statements?
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Yes.

All religions are false. This easily proved for all religions throughout human history. Only human ego causes people to refuse to accept such a truth.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

NoC_T said:
Because Spunky's not looking for a debate.
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And you're not capable of providing one.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Paralogic said:
Yes.

All religions are false. This easily proved for all religions throughout human history. Only human ego causes people to refuse to accept such a truth.
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Actually a lack of proof proves nothing.

So you are making what amounts to an off topic statement that is little more than a guess and opinion.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Blackdog said:
Actually a lack of proof proves nothing.

So you are making what amounts to an off topic statement that is little more than a guess and opinion.
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It proves more than you think. If I were to tell you that last night Jesus flew through my livingroom window riding a zebra, he stopped in front of my couch and said that the bible was made up. Would you believe me? I'm guessing the first thing you would be asking for is proof. Without proof, by its very definition, it is impossible to tell if someone made it up.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

RabidAlpaca said:
It proves more than you think. If I were to tell you that last night Jesus flew through my livingroom window riding a zebra, he stopped in front of my couch and said that the bible was made up. Would you believe me? I'm guessing the first thing you would be asking for is proof. Without proof, by its very definition, it is impossible to tell if someone made it up.
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If you told me you ate a cheeseburger for lunch, I would not ask for proof. I would believe you unless I had some reason not to. So what is the difference?

Also, if I were to ask for proof, it is likely you would be unable to provide it, even if you did, in fact, eat a cheeseburger for lunch.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Peter Grimm said:
If you told me you ate a cheeseburger for lunch, I would not ask for proof. I would believe you unless I had some reason not to. So what is the difference?

Also, if I were to ask for proof, it is likely you would be unable to provide it, even if you did, in fact, eat a cheeseburger for lunch.
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It is very likely that I had a cheeseburger for lunch, yet it is unbelievably unlikely that jesus rode through my window on a zebra. I also wouldn't go around starting a religion and preaching to the world based on what I had for lunch. The latter, perhaps.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

RabidAlpaca said:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It is very likely that I had a cheeseburger for lunch, yet it is unbelievably unlikely that jesus rode through my window on a zebra.
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Do they? Why is that?
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Peter Grimm said:
Do they? Why is that?
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Because when the probability of something decreases, the required evidence increases. I could show you a burger wrapper, and that might suffice enough to convince you that I ate a cheese burger for lunch. If I made a claim that alpacas could solve complex mathematical calculations, you would probably want to see more than a piece of paper with some equations on it. You'd probably want to see the alpaca do it himself. It's an extraordinary claim that requires evidence.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

spanky said:
And what parts are allegory, parable or simply a teaching moment?
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If we are looking historically, we can confirm certain events as historically certain (as much as it can be), and some that historians don't think so.

As so far as which parts are allegory or parable, its not that hard to figure out, the parts that are such, are pretty much stated that way.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Cephus said:
None of those things have anything to do with supernatural claims though. If a claim is unproven, unjustifiable and lacks any evidence that it's so, why in the world would someone believe it?
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Because you trust the source of the claim.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Paralogic said:
If I may add...

The act of religious belief alone is a mental barricade that restricts people from any type of useful thought after they erroneously choose to believe in a god.
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Nonsense, there is a REASON that science came from the christian world, they expected to find order and rationality in the universe and thus looked for it.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

RabidAlpaca said:
Because when the probability of something decreases, the required evidence increases. I could show you a burger wrapper, and that might suffice enough to convince you that I ate a cheese burger for lunch. If I made a claim that alpacas could solve complex mathematical calculations, you would probably want to see more than a piece of paper with some equations on it. You'd probably want to see the alpaca do it himself. It's an extraordinary claim that requires evidence.
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The probability of devine activity, cannot be used, because we have no background information, i.e. if God DOES exist its not unlikely that he would act, if it made sense for him/her to do so.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

RabidAlpaca said:
It proves more than you think. If I were to tell you that last night Jesus flew through my livingroom window riding a zebra, he stopped in front of my couch and said that the bible was made up. Would you believe me? I'm guessing the first thing you would be asking for is proof. Without proof, by its very definition, it is impossible to tell if someone made it up.
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The reason we wouldn't believe that, is because, we would have found evidence of a Zebra, other witnesses, and it would make no sense why that would happen.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

Blackdog said:
Yes I believe they are real. Although I will say if someone does not believe in the divinity of Christ, I personally would not consider them a Christian. In the beginning of the church it was clear he is God, and not just some prophet. It was relativity recently such as the teachings of Islam, that he is seen as a prophet and not the true son of God.

That again is just me though. If I see it as not biblically sound, I avoid it.
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Thats actually not true, the divinity of Jesus was not a set doctrine in early christianity, most obviosuly believed he was special and divinely inspired or sent by God, but not necessarily God himself.

Also if you read the NT, it actually doesn't point to Jesus being God at all, infact it points to the contrary.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

RabidAlpaca said:
It proves more than you think. If I were to tell you that last night Jesus flew through my livingroom window riding a zebra, he stopped in front of my couch and said that the bible was made up. Would you believe me?
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No. you don't have two thousand years of literature from many sources to lend any credence to your statement. Christianity has this. The Bible is not one book, it is many from many different writers. Unlike your statement.

RabidAlpaca said:
I'm guessing the first thing you would be asking for is proof. Without proof, by its very definition, it is impossible to tell if someone made it up.
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No. I would dismiss it as non-biblical. I don't need evidence to know science fiction from something that does have historical precedent even of no solid proof.
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

RGacky3 said:
The probability of devine activity, cannot be used, because we have no background information, i.e. if God DOES exist its not unlikely that he would act, if it made sense for him/her to do so.
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It's not unlikely that god exists. It's unlikely that he would contact me, and me alone. It's unlikely that he would impart a really important message to me and to me alone. Everyone would just have to take my word for it, just like nearly everything in the bible has to be taken for the writer's word.


RGacky3 said:
The reason we wouldn't believe that, is because, we would have found evidence of a Zebra, other witnesses, and it would make no sense why that would happen.
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There are many, many, many things in the bible where zero evidence is presented. Only the word of one, or a few people. How is this any different?
 
Re: A Q for Christians - What parts/events of the NT are absolute fact and true?

RGacky3 said:
Thats actually not true, the divinity of Jesus was not a set doctrine in early christianity, most obviosuly believed he was special and divinely inspired or sent by God, but not necessarily God himself.
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That is when he walked among the people, of course he could not say it directly. The Romans would have arrested him and put him to death ahead of scheduled so to speak. We are talking about before the council, not his death and resurrection.

RGacky3 said:
Also if you read the NT, it actually doesn't point to Jesus being God at all, infact it points to the contrary.
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You are mistaken...

John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

ohn 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:10 [Speaking to the Father] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

I could go on, but you get the point.
 
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