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To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to [W:207]

Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

I'm of the opinion that the stuff about being a God in the Gospel was a gloss, so, C.S. Lewis notwithstanding, I'm good with calling him a great teacher.

Historically, Jesus was probably one of many itinerant preachers in the Levant at that time. They provided a way to God for people who could not afford to approach the Temple, which was controlled by the religious authorities. They all worked miracles and they all taught using proverbs. They borrowed each other's material a lot. Jesus, in particular, was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy, particularly the cynics.

Having said that, a religion is what believers make of it. Jesus is what Christians make of him. It is a foolish waste of time to dispute it.
In this context I'm good with that as well.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Except John Lennon was an asshole for all intents and purposes in his personal life. Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner. Nelson Mandela supported terrorism. They're still extremely important human beings who influenced a bunch of people positively. History is littered with them. Lewis presents a false dichotomy that we don't apply to other historical individuals.

So he made a claim I don't agree with? So what, everyone else I respect has too.

None of them were God.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

None of them were God.

If you dont believe in god, why should that matter? If Bob Marley claims to be enlightened and influenced by his beliefs but also be one of the most important cultural figures of the developing world in the 20th century, should we not automatically throw the baby out with the bathwater from an irreligious perspective? His self-delusion, insanity or even lie leads one down the path of dismissing a **** load of cultural greats.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

If you dont believe in god, why should that matter? If Bob Marley claims to be enlightened and influenced by his beliefs but also be one of the most important cultural figures of the developing world in the 20th century, should we not automatically throw the baby out with the bathwater from an irreligious perspective? His self-delusion, insanity or even lie leads one down the path of dismissing a **** load of cultural greats.

Bob Marley never claimed to be God.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Bob Marley never claimed to be God.

No, he just claimed that Haile Selassie was God.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

SO what would qualify this legend called jesus as being a great man? What exactly did he himself actually do? What makes him so much different than anyone who teaches people stuff?

The only reason that Christian's think that jesus was a great guy is because they think that he was a god and could get them into heaven. It is a selfish want to satisfy the fear of death.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

SO what would qualify this legend called jesus as being a great man? What exactly did he himself actually do? What makes him so much different than anyone who teaches people stuff?

I don't know, over 2.2 billion people who practice Christianity worldwide seem to think He was somewhat different. :shrug:
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

I don't know, over 2.2 billion people who practice Christianity worldwide seem to think He was somewhat different. :shrug:

Argumentum ad populum.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Argumentum ad populum.

I would agree with you here, except that the OP poses a question which is strictly subjective in nature and, therefore, requires no objective, empirical evidence in order to defend a position.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

I would agree with you here, except that the OP poses a question which is strictly subjective in nature and, therefore, requires no objective, empirical evidence in order to defend a position.

Well then your suggestion is that I should probably assume that jesus was a great man because an arbitrary number of people think that way? I would expect that you would at least try to explain why all those people would think that jesus was a great guy?

Im just curious as to what Christian's think that jesus did that would make him a great human being? Its a simple and actually justified question.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Well then your suggestion is that I should probably assume that jesus was a great man because an arbitrary number of people think that way?
Why do you think the number is arbitrary?

Im just curious as to what Christian's think that jesus did that would make him a great human being? Its a simple and actually justified question.
Ok, fair enough, I'll try and give you a simple and honest answer. Because by all accounts (which most Christians believe to be true) he was a sinless and blameless man who lived what he taught - a virtuous existence - and became a willing sacrifice for untold numbers of people he'd never met personally. He preached a Gospel which would give hope to billions in a broken world. His doctrines led to a religious movement that would change the entire world. His obvious intent was that it would change the world for the better, and I believe that it has......despite the fact that many throughout history have wrongly done terrible things in the name of Christianity. Those who've held true to the doctrines of Jesus and have tried their best to emulate the way He lived...........would, out of necessity, do more good than harm.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Argumentum ad populum.

Also fact. And it's not a fallacy if it's a fact. Fact.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived?

We're not even sure he has ever lived, are we?
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

We're not even sure he has ever lived, are we?

Yep, pretty sure, at least according to most reputable modern scholars of antiquity.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Why do you think the number is arbitrary?
Statistics of this nature are arbitrary number since it is impossible to ask each and every person what they think. So the number ends up to be the opinion of the person making the assertion. It would be like asking how many people like ice cream you will never get a accurate number its impossible. There is no such thing as 2.2 billion honest people.

Ok, fair enough, I'll try and give you a simple and honest answer. Because by all accounts (which most Christians believe to be true) he was a sinless and blameless man who lived what he taught - a virtuous existence - and became a willing sacrifice for untold numbers of people he'd never met personally. He preached a Gospel which would give hope to billions in a broken world. His doctrines led to a religious movement that would change the entire world. His obvious intent was that it would change the world for the better, and I believe that it has......despite the fact that many throughout history have wrongly done terrible things in the name of Christianity. Those who've held true to the doctrines of Jesus and have tried their best to emulate the way He lived...........would, out of necessity, do more good than harm.

Of course I dont agree with you, but that should be no surprise lol. But thank you for answering the question.

So basically jesus was this perfect guy that lived a good life and talked about being good instead of being evil. ANd because people try to emulate jesus's way of life this makes him a great man? But Doesnt the bible say that jesus was a man made of flesh while on Earth? If jesus did not sin then he really was not a human then was he?

I also dispute that Christian values are all that good. Let him without sin throw the first rock? Then why do Christians judge homosexuals so readily? Or in many cases judge Atheist's to be evil? Or pretend to know who is going to hell and who is not?

Im ok with Christians spreading their message, that is their prerogative. But they never seem to stop there and seem compelled to judge their neighbors and friends on a daily basis. WHy not just love people and let your god do the rest? Perhaps jesus's footsteps are not realistic to follow after all? Maybe that is why so many struggle with their faith?
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Am I going to hell?

Not my place to decide.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Statistics of this nature are arbitrary number since it is impossible to ask each and every person what they think. So the number ends up to be the opinion of the person making the assertion. It would be like asking how many people like ice cream you will never get a accurate number its impossible. There is no such thing as 2.2 billion honest people.
This is based on international church rolls and missionary reports.....not personal interviews.



Of course I dont agree with you, but that should be no surprise lol. But thank you for answering the question.

So basically jesus was this perfect guy that lived a good life and talked about being good instead of being evil. ANd because people try to emulate jesus's way of life this makes him a great man? But Doesnt the bible say that jesus was a man made of flesh while on Earth? If jesus did not sin then he really was not a human then was he?

I also dispute that Christian values are all that good. Let him without sin throw the first rock? Then why do Christians judge homosexuals so readily? Or in many cases judge Atheist's to be evil? Or pretend to know who is going to hell and who is not?

Im ok with Christians spreading their message, that is their prerogative. But they never seem to stop there and seem compelled to judge their neighbors and friends on a daily basis. WHy not just love people and let your god do the rest? Perhaps jesus's footsteps are not realistic to follow after all? Maybe that is why so many struggle with their faith?

And now, predictably, you begin with the generalizations and stereotypical accusations. This is where I respectfully decline to respond further. Not all Christians behave this way. You know this and you should be ashamed. Not all Christians belong to some great "collective" mindset as you seem to imply. Would it be fair for me to judge all non-believers based on how a few militant, mouth-foaming atheists behaved here on this discussion board? Or perhaps I should judge all non-believers based on how emperor Nero placed Christians in tar jackets, hung them from posts, and set them ablaze to light the streets of Rome? See how this works?
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

A fact perhaps but hardly the truth.

You'll need to explain how a fact and a truth differ.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Statistics of this nature are arbitrary number since it is impossible to ask each and every person what they think. So the number ends up to be the opinion of the person making the assertion. It would be like asking how many people like ice cream you will never get a accurate number its impossible. There is no such thing as 2.2 billion honest people.



Of course I dont agree with you, but that should be no surprise lol. But thank you for answering the question.

So basically jesus was this perfect guy that lived a good life and talked about being good instead of being evil. ANd because people try to emulate jesus's way of life this makes him a great man? But Doesnt the bible say that jesus was a man made of flesh while on Earth? If jesus did not sin then he really was not a human then was he?

I also dispute that Christian values are all that good. Let him without sin throw the first rock? Then why do Christians judge homosexuals so readily? Or in many cases judge Atheist's to be evil? Or pretend to know who is going to hell and who is not?

Im ok with Christians spreading their message, that is their prerogative. But they never seem to stop there and seem compelled to judge their neighbors and friends on a daily basis. WHy not just love people and let your god do the rest? Perhaps jesus's footsteps are not realistic to follow after all? Maybe that is why so many struggle with their faith?

How many struggle with their faith?

Who are these Christians who "never seem to stop there" and "seem compelled" to judge on a "daily basis"? Who are they?

I mean, I go to work and shop at stores and meet new people but never seem to run into these people. So who are they, where are they, and how many of them are there? What's the percentage?
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

How many struggle with their faith?

Who are these Christians who "never seem to stop there" and "seem compelled" to judge on a "daily basis"? Who are they?

I mean, I go to work and shop at stores and meet new people but never seem to run into these people. So who are they, where are they, and how many of them are there? What's the percentage?

Bingo. Judging Others seems to be a human trait, less a Christian one. I've never had a Christian hurl the invective at me that is hurled by non-believers when (for example) we discuss marriage.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

Bingo. Judging Others seems to be a human trait, less a Christian one. I've never had a Christian hurl the invective at me that is hurled by non-believers when (for example) we discuss marriage.

I've had Christers telling me I'm going to hell for walking into a punk rock club
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

The man could turn water into wine.

So, yeah, that puts Him near the top in my book.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

I've had Christers telling me I'm going to hell for walking into a punk rock club

They were just stating the obvious - listening to punk rock is hell.
 
Re: To non-Christians - Is Jesus of Nazareth one of the greatest humans to have lived

I've had Christers telling me I'm going to hell for walking into a punk rock club

Yup. One of the things I love most about my faith is that our starting position is "Okay, so, we are going to screw this up."
 
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