Why is Christmas a National/Federal Holiday?

spanky · Dec 28, 2012

Cephus said:
You're horribly ignorant of Christmas. I'm saying that most Americans do not practice Christmas religiously and the biggest cultural icons of Christmas are wholly secular. You're the one acting like just because Christmas *STARTED* as a religious holiday, that's all it can ever be. Halloween started as a religious holiday too, it's now a purely secular holiday about kids dressing up and asking for candy.

It's not. It used to be, like Christmas, but over time it's become secular. It's become less about religious resurrection myths and more about having a good time with family and friends. Coloring eggs and giant rabbits hopping down the bunny trail have nothing whatsoever to do with religion, but that is what the majority of Americans identify as the core of what Easter is today.

It appears the only difference here is whether one agrees or disagrees that whatever it has become at it's core Xmas is a religious event that celebrates the birth of Jesus. My question wasn't why it's a holiday, it's why it's a Federal holiday (maybe I shouldn't have used the word "national") when no other religious person or group who works for the gubmint get's their high holy day off, paid.

So let's leave it at that and move on to more important issues.

Zyphlin · Dec 28, 2012

Because Christmas, unlike the other holidays Spanky continues to list while placing fingers in his ears while everyone else has responded, is a holiday celebrated or observed by the vast majority of individuals in this country and as such is more logical and economically beneficial on the part of the government to set as the particular one that is granted "holiday" type status. Christmas is largely celebrated in this country not just by staunch christians but also by many of those who are athiest, agnostic, or so mildly interested in religion in any fashion that giving them a label is pretty much useless. On the part of the federal government, attempting to have people working on a day where the vast majority of your workforce is going to attempt to take leave is rather inefficient. When you couple this with the fact that most of your external private business services are also likely to be closed on such a day it becomes even more inefficient. Considering there is a clear cut, unquestionable, divide at this point between the secular and religious aspects of the Holiday, having Christmas as a federal holiday in no way the government instructing you to celebrate the "birth of Christ" unless there's some magical "how to celebrate christmas" pamplet being circulated by OPM that I've not been made aware of. In many ways, the holiday's purpose is the same as Thanksgiving which at this point would have a similar type of effect if it was suddenly no longer given "holiday" status by the federal government.

This is all based on the question which seems to be why IS it...not why DID IT BECOME. That's an entirely different question and largely likely similar in terms of the impact it had on the federal work force and the inefficient nature of trying to get work done on that (and other holidays of the time). Also note that it is not technically "Christmas" that is the holiday but rather that December 25th is a Holiday and is simply noted that it is commonly referred to as Christmas. Granted, a minor quibble but given the level of argument (or lack there for) being put forth here a worthwhile quibble none the less. From the original inception of the Holidays:

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the following days, to wit: The first day of January, commonly called New Year's day, the fourth day of July, the twenty-fifth day of December, commonly called Christmas Day, and any day appointed or recommended by the President of the United States as a day of public fast or thanksgiving, shall be holidays within the District of Columbia, and shall, for all purposes of presenting for payment or acceptance of the maturity and protest, and giving notice of the dishonor of bills of exchange, bank checks and promissory notes or other negotiable or commercial paper, be treated and considered as is the first day of the week, commonly called Sunday, and all notes, drafts, checks, or other commercial or negotiable paper falling due or maturing on either of said holidays shall be deemed as having matured on the day previous

SOURCE

Christmas was massively and regularly celebrated even before it was made a Federal Holiday. The holiday was simply made to provide the day off for those within the Federal Government. If a different Holiday was widely celebrated at that time it likely would've been included as well or in it's place. But that wasn't, nor is it currently, the case

spanky · Dec 28, 2012

Zyphlin said:
Because Christmas, unlike the other holidays Spanky continues to list while placing fingers in his ears while everyone else has responded, is a holiday celebrated or observed by the vast majority of individuals in this country and as such is more logical and economically beneficial on the part of the government to set as the particular one that is granted "holiday" type status. Christmas is largely celebrated in this country not just by staunch christians but also by many of those who are athiest, agnostic, or so mildly interested in religion in any fashion that giving them a label is pretty much useless. On the part of the federal government, attempting to have people working on a day where the vast majority of your workforce is going to attempt to take leave is rather inefficient. When you couple this with the fact that most of your external private business services are also likely to be closed on such a day it becomes even more inefficient. Considering there is a clear cut, unquestionable, divide at this point between the secular and religious aspects of the Holiday, having Christmas as a federal holiday in no way the government instructing you to celebrate the "birth of Christ" unless there's some magical "how to celebrate christmas" pamplet being circulated by OPM that I've not been made aware of. In many ways, the holiday's purpose is the same as Thanksgiving which at this point would have a similar type of effect if it was suddenly no longer given "holiday" status by the federal government.

This is all based on the question which seems to be why IS it...not why DID IT BECOME. That's an entirely different question and largely likely similar in terms of the impact it had on the federal work force and the inefficient nature of trying to get work done on that (and other holidays of the time). Also note that it is not technically "Christmas" that is the holiday but rather that December 25th is a Holiday and is simply noted that it is commonly referred to as Christmas. Granted, a minor quibble but given the level of argument (or lack there for) being put forth here a worthwhile quibble none the less. From the original inception of the Holidays:

Christmas was massively and regularly celebrated even before it was made a Federal Holiday. The holiday was simply made to provide the day off for those within the Federal Government. If a different Holiday was widely celebrated at that time it likely would've been included as well or in it's place. But that wasn't, nor is it currently, the case

Just because federal employes don't get the day off paid doesn't mean it will go away or that it won't be celebrated. I have a problem under 1st amendment, establishment and separation of church and state issues for the government to establish or recognize ANY religious holiday, particularly when it seems to favor one over the other.

But it's not the mountain I'm going to die on, so let's move on.

spanky · Dec 28, 2012

Zyphlin said:
Because Christmas, unlike the other holidays Spanky continues to list while placing fingers in his ears while everyone else has responded, is a holiday celebrated or observed by the vast majority of individuals in this country and as such is more logical and economically beneficial on the part of the government to set as the particular one that is granted "holiday" type status. Christmas is largely celebrated in this country not just by staunch christians but also by many of those who are athiest, agnostic, or so mildly interested in religion in any fashion that giving them a label is pretty much useless. On the part of the federal government, attempting to have people working on a day where the vast majority of your workforce is going to attempt to take leave is rather inefficient. When you couple this with the fact that most of your external private business services are also likely to be closed on such a day it becomes even more inefficient. Considering there is a clear cut, unquestionable, divide at this point between the secular and religious aspects of the Holiday, having Christmas as a federal holiday in no way the government instructing you to celebrate the "birth of Christ" unless there's some magical "how to celebrate christmas" pamplet being circulated by OPM that I've not been made aware of. In many ways, the holiday's purpose is the same as Thanksgiving which at this point would have a similar type of effect if it was suddenly no longer given "holiday" status by the federal government.

This is all based on the question which seems to be why IS it...not why DID IT BECOME. That's an entirely different question and largely likely similar in terms of the impact it had on the federal work force and the inefficient nature of trying to get work done on that (and other holidays of the time). Also note that it is not technically "Christmas" that is the holiday but rather that December 25th is a Holiday and is simply noted that it is commonly referred to as Christmas. Granted, a minor quibble but given the level of argument (or lack there for) being put forth here a worthwhile quibble none the less. From the original inception of the Holidays:

Christmas was massively and regularly celebrated even before it was made a Federal Holiday. The holiday was simply made to provide the day off for those within the Federal Government. If a different Holiday was widely celebrated at that time it likely would've been included as well or in it's place. But that wasn't, nor is it currently, the case

Let me ask you a question, if the Fed established one day of Ramadan as a national/federal holiday, would you have a problem with that? I would, as I would if it were Chanukah, or the Wiccan day of the dead. The FedGuv has no business recognizing the high holy day of any religion, particularly when it is exclusive.

Zyphlin · Dec 28, 2012

spanky said:
Just because federal employes don't get the day off paid doesn't mean it will go away or that it won't be celebrated.

Absolutely. That doesn't counter what I said, it re-enforces it.

Even if Federal Employees don't get the day off paid, the majority of the country will still be celebrating it. This means you'll have legions of federal employees asking off for that day anyways, on top of multiple principles in the private sector that they interact with being closed or running massively short staff, leading to a point where it's actually more inefficient to attempt to actually make it a work day.

I have a problem under 1st amendment, establishment and separation of church and state issues for the government to establish or recognize ANY religious holiday, particularly when it seems to favor one over the other.

Then I'm sure you could push to have your argument challenged before the SCOTUS if you feel strongly enough. I believe that there is no requirement by government that one celebrate christmas, let alone that one celebrate the religious aspects of christmas, and that it specifically is simply giving the 25th day of December off to federal employees and referencing the day by its commonly referenced name.
But it's not the mountain I'm going to die on, so let's move on.[/QUOTE]

spanky · Dec 28, 2012

Zyphlin said:
Absolutely. That doesn't counter what I said, it re-enforces it.

Even if Federal Employees don't get the day off paid, the majority of the country will still be celebrating it. This means you'll have legions of federal employees asking off for that day anyways, on top of multiple principles in the private sector that they interact with being closed or running massively short staff, leading to a point where it's actually more inefficient to attempt to actually make it a work day.

Then I'm sure you could push to have your argument challenged before the SCOTUS if you feel strongly enough. I believe that there is no requirement by government that one celebrate christmas, let alone that one celebrate the religious aspects of christmas, and that it specifically is simply giving the 25th day of December off to federal employees and referencing the day by its commonly referenced name.
But it's not the mountain I'm going to die on, so let's move on.

[/QUOTE]

Let them take a vacation day like Jews, Muslims, Satanists and Gaia/Wiccan/Tree hugger goofs.

Zyphlin · Dec 28, 2012

spanky said:
Let me ask you a question, if the Fed established one day of Ramadan as a national/federal holiday, would you have a problem with that?

Yes, but not on any type of religious grounds. It would be an amazingly inefficient and illogical day to place a federal holiday on. There is no particular day of Ramadan that currently causes a significant amount of the federal work force to request off for, there are not significant amounts of private entities that interact with the government that are regularly closed or short staffed during Ramadan, and there's no tangable benefit to work force moral in a significant and over arching way that offsets to any real degree the cost of initiating another holiday.

Now, if you wanted to say that in a hypothetical situation the vast majority of the country celebrates a holiday on a specific day during Ramadan in a way similar to Christmas would I be okay with the Government giving that day off...yes, yes I would. Seeing how the Federal Government generally works, I'd be foolish to say anything otherwise. It's just not practical to try and make it a work day.

Zyphlin · Dec 28, 2012

spanky said:
let them take a vacation day like Jews and Muslims.

The amount of individuals trying to take vacation days on the Jewish or Muslim holidays, or the amount of private sector entities that the government interacts with that are closed or have significant people on leave during, are sizably smaller than the numbers that would/do occur on Christmas. It's not comparable based on what I'm actually SAYING but you're not responding to what I'm saying...you're responding to what you've created in your head and since I'm not vocalizing that you're trying to contort my argument to fix it so you can repeat your standard responses.

From a practical stand point, I'd be far more apt to suggest we remove something like MLK day, Presidents Day, Columbus Day, and Veterans day. Those are all days that, if the Federal Government didn't have them as a holiday, would likely run much the same as any other day in the year. I can't say the same for New Years Day, 4th of July, Thanksgiving, and Christmas and to an lesser extent at this point in our societal existance I'd say Memorial and Labor day. Those are days where, even if the Federal Government didn't list it as a federal holiday, we'd still likely see many businesses shut down, droves of people taking off work, children being kept home from school, etc.

Cephus · Dec 28, 2012

spanky said:
It appears the only difference here is whether one agrees or disagrees that whatever it has become at it's core Xmas is a religious event that celebrates the birth of Jesus. My question wasn't why it's a holiday, it's why it's a Federal holiday (maybe I shouldn't have used the word "national") when no other religious person or group who works for the gubmint get's their high holy day off, paid.

So let's leave it at that and move on to more important issues.

So you admit you no longer have a point? It's a federal holiday because someone declared it to be a federal holiday. Why do you seem to think that makes it somehow magical?

Zyphlin · Dec 28, 2012

Cephus said:
It's not. It used to be, like Christmas, but over time it's become secular. It's become less about religious resurrection myths and more about having a good time with family and friends. Coloring eggs and giant rabbits hopping down the bunny trail have nothing whatsoever to do with religion, but that is what the majority of Americans identify as the core of what Easter is today.

What more, Easter is a great example of why a holiday like Christmas or Thanksgiving is Federal. Easter always falls on a Sunday. Sunday is outside of the standard Federal Work Week and the standard work week for many private entities the federal government deals with. As such, there's little practical benefit to the federal government giving its employees a day off on that day unlike Thanksgiving or Christmas. It is an equally important religious holiday as Christmas, but the purpose of Christmas being a made a Holiday isn't for Religious reasons thus why Easter is also not an official Holiday and likely will never be.

Cephus · Dec 28, 2012

Zyphlin said:
What more, Easter is a great example of why a holiday like Christmas or Thanksgiving is Federal. Easter always falls on a Sunday. Sunday is outside of the standard Federal Work Week and the standard work week for many private entities the federal government deals with. As such, there's little practical benefit to the federal government giving its employees a day off on that day unlike Thanksgiving or Christmas. It is an equally important religious holiday as Christmas, but the purpose of Christmas being a made a Holiday isn't for Religious reasons thus why Easter is also not an official Holiday and likely will never be.

Easter isn't a religious holiday anymore either, it's secular. Egg-giving rabbits hopping down the bunny trail have nothing to do with Christianity.

Zyphlin · Dec 28, 2012

Cephus said:
Easter isn't a religious holiday anymore either, it's secular. Egg-giving rabbits hopping down the bunny trail have nothing to do with Christianity.

Eh, I see it the same way as I see Christmas. A Holiday that is celebrated in various fashions and is both secular and religious depending on each individuals method of celebrating the holiday in question.

If one celebrates Christmas by focusing on the nativity story, celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ as a savior, and giving gifts in honor of the storied gifts given to him by the wise men then you're celebrating the religious aspect of the holiday. If one celebrates Christmas by focusing primarily on the notion that if one makes Santa's "nice" list then he will ride on his flying sleigh, pulled by Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, down from the North Pole and give presents to the boys and girls then you're celebrating the secular aspect of the holiday. They both absolutely still exist, and they're not mutually exclusive, but they in no way require a person to celebrate either particular side of the coin.

In many ways it's similar to how many view Marriage...both in terms of the secular governmental contract binding two individuals and the religious ceremonial spiritual contract binding two souls. One word but with multiple meanings, and multiple meanings that can be put together OR dealt with entirely seperate from each other.

Cephus · Dec 28, 2012

Zyphlin said:
Eh, I see it the same way as I see Christmas. A Holiday that is celebrated in various fashions and is both secular and religious depending on each individuals method of celebrating the holiday in question.

That's true, but numerically and publically, it's a purely secular holiday. If you walk into Walmart, you don't see them selling primarily nativity scenes, it's all secular Christmas decorations. For Easter, you don't see them selling Jesus-on-a-cross decorations, you see egg coloring kits. If you go out in public, you don't see a lot of nativity scenes, it's all lights and trees and Santa Claus. Kids sit on Santa's lap and tell him what they want, they don't sit on Jesus' lap and confess their sins. Kids send letter to Santa, not birthday cards to Jesus.

The idea that Christmas is a religious holiday is absurd. Whether or not some small percentage of people recognize it that way or not doesn't make the overall holiday religious, any more than if some people had religious celebrations on the 4th of July, that would become a religious holiday.

FluffyNinja · Jan 1, 2013

Cephus said:
That's true, but numerically and publically, it's a purely secular holiday. If you walk into Walmart, you don't see them selling primarily nativity scenes, it's all secular Christmas decorations. For Easter, you don't see them selling Jesus-on-a-cross decorations, you see egg coloring kits. If you go out in public, you don't see a lot of nativity scenes, it's all lights and trees and Santa Claus. Kids sit on Santa's lap and tell him what they want, they don't sit on Jesus' lap and confess their sins. Kids send letter to Santa, not birthday cards to Jesus.

The idea that Christmas is a religious holiday is absurd. Whether or not some small percentage of people recognize it that way or not doesn't make the overall holiday religious, any more than if some people had religious celebrations on the 4th of July, that would become a religious holiday.

I almost hate agreeing with you, but when you're right.....you're right. :mrgreen:

Sadly (for me at least), all of this is true and I completely agree with you...................Don't get used to this, however.

Why is Christmas a National/Federal Holiday?

All Warm and Fuzzy