• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Why couldn't I speak out against churches if I wanted to?

LoopyPaladin

Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Messages
86
Reaction score
31
Location
Earth.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Socialist
First and foremost, I want to clarify that I really have no problem with Religion, this is just a hypothetical question.

So, if other religions are allowed to ban the saying of "Merry Christmas", and make it so that "Christmas trees" are now "Holiday trees", then why can't I ban churches and open religious service? Why am I not allowed to, as an Atheist, gather a whole wad of Atheists and claim that the presentation of churches and the church's message boards are against what I believe and have them removed from that plot of land?

I just think it's ridiculous how much power those who believe in a God have over those who don't.

Opinions?
 
That didn't really make a lot of sense. Just sayin'...
 
Don't worry! Other Religions have NOT banned you from saying Merry Christmas.

See - Merry Christmas Merry Christmas Merry Christmas Merry Christmas

It's safe tro come out of the closet now......

First and foremost, I want to clarify that I really have no problem with Religion, this is just a hypothetical question.

So, if other religions are allowed to ban the saying of "Merry Christmas", and make it so that "Christmas trees" are now "Holiday trees", then why can't I ban churches and open religious service? Why am I not allowed to, as an Atheist, gather a whole wad of Atheists and claim that the presentation of churches and the church's message boards are against what I believe and have them removed from that plot of land?

I just think it's ridiculous how much power those who believe in a God have over those who don't.

Opinions?
 
That didn't really make a lot of sense. Just sayin'...

Maybe I just didn't get it across the way I had intended... It's that people who don't like another belief or lifestyle can have things about what they don't like banned from society in some way. Take homosexuals for examples, and how in many places gays can't get married, or that some people can't practice their religion because another religion isn't fond of it. It's the same sort of idea, if that makes any sense. I'm just curious as to why Atheists can't get religion banned from public places like so many other groups have with other groups...

I hope this makes a bit more sense... if not, then I need to re-learn how to communicate my thoughts correctly.
 
Don't worry! Other Religions have NOT banned you from saying Merry Christmas.

See - Merry Christmas Merry Christmas Merry Christmas Merry Christmas

It's safe tro come out of the closet now......

Well... I'm sure you know what I mean, though, right? Banned was the wrong word to use, but it's not as widely socially acceptable anymore...
 
First and foremost, I want to clarify that I really have no problem with Religion, this is just a hypothetical question.

So, if other religions are allowed to ban the saying of "Merry Christmas", and make it so that "Christmas trees" are now "Holiday trees", then why can't I ban churches and open religious service? Why am I not allowed to, as an Atheist, gather a whole wad of Atheists and claim that the presentation of churches and the church's message boards are against what I believe and have them removed from that plot of land?

I just think it's ridiculous how much power those who believe in a God have over those who don't.

Opinions?

By changing happy Christmas to happy holidays society is creating a more tolerant term that encompasses almost everybody. That's not the same as denying a religious group the right to speak.
 
Well, as a person of faith, I believe that Atheists have been too successful in getting religion removed from public places. I am sorry, but banning High School football teams from saying a prayer or having a minister at graduation is excessive. Ten Commandments from court rooms, sure.
 
Well, as a person of faith, I believe that Atheists have been too successful in getting religion removed from public places. I am sorry, but banning High School football teams from saying a prayer or having a minister at graduation is excessive. Ten Commandments from court rooms, sure.

Too successful...

Not having a minister at graduation is not going too far, and in no way is it excessive. Not everyone wants to have a minister give them their degree/diploma. I, personally, wouldn't want one to give it to me simply because I would feel that I'm having that religion shoved down my throat.

It's the same sort of thing in court, when one has to swear over the bible that they're telling the truth. People in Canada have been getting testy because the Native population has said that they're going to start swearing over a feather because it actually applies to them whereas the bible doesn't. I wouldn't want to swear over a bible that I'm telling the truth, because it would honestly mean nothing because I don't believe anything that the bible has to say, and swearing to God is useless for the same reason.
 
Neither is smoking. So what? You can't get arrested for saying Merry Christmas but if I light up on a plane, I'll be in handcuffs.


Well... I'm sure you know what I mean, though, right? Banned was the wrong word to use, but it's not as widely socially acceptable anymore...
 
Maybe I just didn't get it across the way I had intended... It's that people who don't like another belief or lifestyle can have things about what they don't like banned from society in some way. Take homosexuals for examples, and how in many places gays can't get married, or that some people can't practice their religion because another religion isn't fond of it. It's the same sort of idea, if that makes any sense. I'm just curious as to why Atheists can't get religion banned from public places like so many other groups have with other groups...

I hope this makes a bit more sense... if not, then I need to re-learn how to communicate my thoughts correctly.

Perhaps it has a bit to do with our Constitution; read the first amendment and get back to us.
 
Too successful...

Not having a minister at graduation is not going too far, and in no way is it excessive. Not everyone wants to have a minister give them their degree/diploma. I, personally, wouldn't want one to give it to me simply because I would feel that I'm having that religion shoved down my throat.

It's the same sort of thing in court, when one has to swear over the bible that they're telling the truth. People in Canada have been getting testy because the Native population has said that they're going to start swearing over a feather because it actually applies to them whereas the bible doesn't. I wouldn't want to swear over a bible that I'm telling the truth, because it would honestly mean nothing because I don't believe anything that the bible has to say, and swearing to God is useless for the same reason.

I have never seen a Bible used in any courtroom anywhere I have ever been in court. A minister saying a prayer at a graduation is not that big of a thing to me. As long as it is a prayer of goodwill and hope, I wouldn't care if it were given by someone of other faiths. It is not any offense to me if it were a Buddhist or a Muslim or a Jewish prayer instead of a Christian prayer so I wouldn't interpret it as them shoving their faith down my throat.
 
If those commandments mean so much, how come nobody actually follows them?





Well, as a person of faith, I believe that Atheists h



ave been too successful in getting religion removed from public places. I am sorry, but banning High School football teams from saying a prayer or having a minister at graduation is excessive. Ten Commandments from court rooms, sure.
 
If those commandments mean so much, how come nobody actually follows them?

I don't covet your ox or donkey, so I follow some of them (sometimes) LOL. I may have written that part of my post poorly--Sure, we shouldn't have 10 Commandments in the court is what I meant.
 
If those commandments mean so much, how come nobody actually follows them?

We usually try to follow those commandments, but in order to keep the your Vegas economy afloat, we realize that we occasionally need to break a few of them.
 
I noticed they got rid of that adultery one.

Vegas is part of God's Plan.


We usually try to follow those commandments, but in order to keep the your Vegas economy afloat, we realize that we occasionally need to break a few of them.
 
Maybe I just didn't get it across the way I had intended... It's that people who don't like another belief or lifestyle can have things about what they don't like banned from society in some way. Take homosexuals for examples, and how in many places gays can't get married, or that some people can't practice their religion because another religion isn't fond of it. It's the same sort of idea, if that makes any sense. I'm just curious as to why Atheists can't get religion banned from public places like so many other groups have with other groups...

It's about power and who has it. Atheists can't do this in the West because the churches have the power. Atheists could do this and did do this in the Communist States because they had the power. It has nothing to do with philosophical justification or moral principles-- it has to do with who has the most guns pointed at everyone else.
 
Well... I'm sure you know what I mean, though, right? Banned was the wrong word to use, but it's not as widely socially acceptable anymore...

No, that's not true either.
 
There is no war on Christmas. There are just alot of whinny Christians that are jealous that non Christian's celebrate Christmas as a holiday.
 
I have never seen a Bible used in any courtroom anywhere I have ever been in court. A minister saying a prayer at a graduation is not that big of a thing to me. As long as it is a prayer of goodwill and hope, I wouldn't care if it were given by someone of other faiths. It is not any offense to me if it were a Buddhist or a Muslim or a Jewish prayer instead of a Christian prayer so I wouldn't interpret it as them shoving their faith down my throat.

Maybe it's just a thing in Canada whereabouts I live, or just in varied places. It varies from person to person what they think is having religions shoved down their throat. I just think that if I'm forced to sit there while a minister is giving me a Christian prayer, I would consider it as such because I have no choice but to listen to his prayers.
 
Religion is a way of life, and the constitution guarantees limited state interference with respect to the practice of religion. Atheism is a lack of belief in God, and thus (typically) a lack of need/desire for a religious way of life.

As an atheist, I never understood the victim mentality that other atheists adopt. You're not being forced to do a damn thing, and when you happen to walk past a church, how in the hell is that even remotely offensive to you? Does it cause you harm when somebody say "Merry Christmas"? Are you put under emotional duress when you see a manger display? It should be no more hurtful to you to witness those things than it is for a Christian to witness a lack of those things.
 
Religion is a way of life, and the constitution guarantees limited state interference with respect to the practice of religion. Atheism is a lack of belief in God, and thus (typically) a lack of need/desire for a religious way of life.

As an atheist, I never understood the victim mentality that other atheists adopt. You're not being forced to do a damn thing, and when you happen to walk past a church, how in the hell is that even remotely offensive to you? Does it cause you harm when somebody say "Merry Christmas"? Are you put under emotional duress when you see a manger display? It should be no more hurtful to you to witness those things than it is for a Christian to witness a lack of those things.

But how much of this actually due to atheists? Who sued and when, what law got passed? Or is this something that militant theists overblow in order to make the appearance of the big bad atheist? Did companies start moving to Happy Holidays to include more of their customers? Has "Happy Holidays" simply always existed as a general greeting for this time of year?

In short, is there any proof and evidence what so ever that this perceived increase in "Happy Holidays" is A) an actual real increase in the use of the words AND B) the result of atheist action?

I fear that people hear things of this sort and automatically assume that it is the atheists doing something. It was just like the other thread where the town cancelled the display on public grounds and people jumped up and down and said "Look at what the atheists did!!!" and for anyone with half a functioning brain and the ability to read English realized that it was the vandalism to the atheist displays which caused the cancellation, not the atheists themselves. The knee jerk reactionary "it's all the atheists fault!" is becoming a very suspect rallying cry.
 
But how much of this actually due to atheists? Who sued and when, what law got passed? Or is this something that militant theists overblow in order to make the appearance of the big bad atheist? Did companies start moving to Happy Holidays to include more of their customers? Has "Happy Holidays" simply always existed as a general greeting for this time of year?

In short, is there any proof and evidence what so ever that this perceived increase in "Happy Holidays" is A) an actual real increase in the use of the words AND B) the result of atheist action?

I fear that people hear things of this sort and automatically assume that it is the atheists doing something. It was just like the other thread where the town cancelled the display on public grounds and people jumped up and down and said "Look at what the atheists did!!!" and for anyone with half a functioning brain and the ability to read English realized that it was the vandalism to the atheist displays which caused the cancellation, not the atheists themselves. The knee jerk reactionary "it's all the atheists fault!" is becoming a very suspect rallying cry.

If my post implied anything other than what I stated, I apologize. I wasn't trying to blame atheists for a move to a more PC holiday. I was merely making an observation on the increasingly present argument I see from some atheists (i.e. those who enjoy playing the victim) that they are somehow being discriminated against or that religion is intentionally trying to offend them merely by existing. That was in direct response to the OP's challenge that the existence of a church is somehow offensive or deserving of censure by atheists.

I am an atheist, but I do not condemn the existence of faith. Everybody copes with life in the method they find most successful for them. Religious faith (not religious institutions) is much less harmful than many other coping methods people choose to utilize. As such, I see no reason to ambush or castigate the religious merely for existing and living the life they feel best embodies the dictates of their chosen religion. That doesn't mean I must refrain from condemning those who act harmfully in the name of religion...but I hardly see a free standing church or a nativity scene as an inherently harmful action. Nor do I think that a religious person remarking that they will pray for me to be an act of forceful indoctrination. Hell, I don't even feel particularly violated by my grandmother's mandate that we say grace before a family meal.

That's what I'm arguing against when I call out the "victimized atheist"....those who would seek to claim harm in otherwise innocuous activities.

As far as the "war on religion" or "war on atheism"...I think it's all hyperbolic nonsense from both sides. Atheists are gonna have to accept that they are a significant minority as this point in time and understand that they're not going to "convert" 94% of the world population to anti-theism overnight. Christians are gonna have to accept that a significant portion of the planet are not christian...same with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and every other variant of religious belief and do not intend to convert.

The challenge is, most religions exist on the tenant that you must convert non-believers. Atheism has no tenants. So when you have a firmly held core belief that salvation is dependent on spreading the word of your savior, you're going to end up "offending" those who do not hold such beliefs, or those who belief in a different savior. Atheists would do well to rise above the situation and accept that innocent evangelizing harms nobody, and politely decline to participate in the conversation. It really serves no practical purpose to go on a which hunt against the religious for doing what they truly believe is right, so long as their actions are not inherently harmful (i.e. killing those who refuse to convert).
 
Maybe it's just a thing in Canada whereabouts I live, or just in varied places. It varies from person to person what they think is having religions shoved down their throat. I just think that if I'm forced to sit there while a minister is giving me a Christian prayer, I would consider it as such because I have no choice but to listen to his prayers.

I don't just sit there and listen to ministers I don't want to listen to, I get up and walk away.

I never thought of Canada as being overly religious?
 
I don't just sit there and listen to ministers I don't want to listen to, I get up and walk away.

I never thought of Canada as being overly religious?

77% of Canadians are Christian.
 
Maybe I just didn't get it across the way I had intended... It's that people who don't like another belief or lifestyle can have things about what they don't like banned from society in some way. Take homosexuals for examples, and how in many places gays can't get married, or that some people can't practice their religion because another religion isn't fond of it. It's the same sort of idea, if that makes any sense. I'm just curious as to why Atheists can't get religion banned from public places like so many other groups have with other groups...

I hope this makes a bit more sense... if not, then I need to re-learn how to communicate my thoughts correctly.

Still doesn't make any sense.
 
Back
Top Bottom