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Thoughts on Religion

A


There are reasons why I disbelieve, and some that are more personal than others. If you want to know and understand why, please fire away. I'm prepared to explain my views in this thread while trying—trying—to be neither dogmatic, condescending, or arrogant.

You have to believe or disbelieve whatever you need and want to. What it really amounts to is that nobody is trying to convince you of anything. It is your life, and your gig. If it is something you are satisfied with, then go with it. There's no need to justify yourself with anyone else.
 
As some of you are aware I exhibit some extent of animosity towards religion. That's absolutely true, because the concept itself has, from my perspective, been damaging. What's also true is that many other people throughout time have been hurt from it as well, that religion itself is innately irrational, and that every good thing religion can accomplish can also be accomplished through ethical—secular—means. For the most part I can thank Christopher Hitchens for these views, because I draw heavily on his written work.

However, having read part of his book—God is not Great—he did mention in page 8 that we're only partly rational mammals... that evolution has made our prefontal lobes too small, and our adrenal glands too big. We aren't solely rational animals. Thanks to the glands, chemicals, and other matter within our brains we're subjected to a whole host of emotions, irrationalities, and beliefs. We look at objects or experience certain feelings... and we apply names and meanings to them. For example, we humans consider the round, juicy, sweet fruit used for making cider... and we call it an "apple." But then, since man is man—and man has a proclivity for the subjective—what we here call "apple" is called by many different names in many different tongues, both past and present.

Throughout time things have changed. What was given a name 3,000 years ago by a certain people will have a different name by a different people... in modern times. What I've been trying to say is that humans aren't strictly rational. We have emotions, we're not outstandingly bright, and we suffer from a myriad of feelings and beliefs—not all of which is solely religion. Religion is merely a facet of the problem: "humanity," or whatever that is.

So, humans believe. Humans feel. We fear. We are scared of the unknown. We are scared of things that we can't possibly know, like death, or should I say... what is "after" death. What we don't understand we find ways to explain it away. There is no possible way to explain "why" we're born on Earth. That is where religion and beliefs come into play. Instead of coming to grips with the terrible feeling of overwhelming emptiness—that there is no inherently objective meaning to life—we find ways to cope. We... find "hope," faith. We want to believe that there is something else after death. We hope to find explanations for our existence, behaviors we don't understand, and also what "may be" after death.

For example the Egyptians a few millennia ago were convinced that only the king—the Pharoah—could live on forever after death, and that everything he owned would come with him on his ethereal journey. As centuries passed.... this "privilege" of eternity included the nobility as well, and then theirslaves, and, ultimately, every citizen from the highest class to the lowest. If a noble wanted slaves to accompany him in the afterlife, he'd have them killed upon his death.

I don't want to write a pamphlet to explain why I now disbelieve. All I can say to really make a difference is that you, if you believe, should read the works of Christopher Hitchens. Unlike dogmatic atheists who make it a habit of shutting out opposing beliefs while clinging to theirs, Hitchens himself stated in page 10: "I don't feel arrogant enough to exempt myself from self-criticism." From reading his books and essays I can confidently say that he did have a streak of humility in him in which he would imply that, though he was intelligent, he was sure to not always be right, or fall into the trap of dogmatism. One should understand the empirical facts, note contradictions wherever found, but not become arrogantly sure of one's own beliefs.

There are reasons why I disbelieve, and some that are more personal than others. If you want to know and understand why, please fire away. I'm prepared to explain my views in this thread while trying—trying—to be neither dogmatic, condescending, or arrogant.

Religion is a natural consequence of our intelligence and curiosity. Any species of sufficient intelligence will invent religion.
 
Wake, a little side question that I was wondering about, if you don't mind. I remember when you considered yourself a Christian, and you opposed gay marriage. Then you became a tolerant Christian, realizing that institutional discrimination is not tolerant, and described your position as "pro gay marriage but homosexuality is still a sin". Now I'm wondering if you still think that homosexuality is a sin or wrong, having seemingly given up the basis for your previous assessment.

Thanks in advance for the update.
 
Wake, a little side question that I was wondering about, if you don't mind. I remember when you considered yourself a Christian, and you opposed gay marriage. Then you became a tolerant Christian, realizing that institutional discrimination is not tolerant, and described your position as "pro gay marriage but homosexuality is still a sin". Now I'm wondering if you still think that homosexuality is a sin or wrong, having seemingly given up the basis for your previous assessment.

Thanks in advance for the update.

Some fragment of a feeling that it is "wrong" remains. However, empiricists don't take into account religious morals, nor should they take into account secular ones. Whether religious or not, I still find the acts and the thought of homosexual attraction to be disgusting—IMO.
 
Some fragment of a feeling that it is "wrong" remains. However, empiricists don't take into account religious morals, nor should they take into account secular ones. Whether religious or not, I still find the acts and the thought of homosexual attraction to be disgusting—IMO.

Have you completely/honestly considered what the "driving force" behind these feelings might be?
 
Have you completely/honestly considered what the "driving force" behind these feelings might be?

Yeah, I would like to know also. As soon as I dropped my religion, all feelings about homosexuality being wrong were immediately wiped away.

or are you implying that the driving force behind those feelings is that homosexuality is actually wrong?
 
Yeah, I would like to know also. As soon as I dropped my religion, all feelings about homosexuality being wrong were immediately wiped away.

or are you implying that the driving force behind those feelings is that homosexuality is actually wrong?

I'm not implying anything. I am just sincerely curious as to why he's appeared to have gone 180 degrees from Christianity and yet still has the "feeling" that homosexual behavior is wrong? Perhaps he's not as "convicted" by his recent "conversion" as he seems to have convinced himself he is? :shrug:
 
I'm not implying anything. I am just sincerely curious as to why he's appeared to have gone 180 degrees from Christianity and yet still has the "feeling" that homosexual behavior is wrong? Perhaps he's not as "convicted" by his recent "conversion" as he seems to have convinced himself he is? :shrug:

Yeah, tbh I don't understand why an atheist would feel that homosexuality is wrong considering there's reason or evidence to believe it is outside of religious texts.

That is kind of weird.
 
Have you completely/honestly considered what the "driving force" behind these feelings might be?

There's likely a vestigial "religious" part floating somewhere. Any person who was raised in a religious family for a little over two decades will likely have some traces of that past lifestyle ingrained in their behavior. It may take time. It's also probably true that homosexuality is a result of biology and genetics, and that religious trace doesn't fully accept it yet. OR, the traditional Christian god exists, and it's a sin... but then why would god create homosexuals if he already knows everyone's fate? Why would he create homosexuals only to know that they're going to hell? Why would he create every conceivable sinner then cast them to eternal suffering? What is the point of faith, of believing, if god has "already selected" his chosen people?

Meh, apologies for the tangent. Perhaps I call myself an empiricist/nihilist, yet some small trace of my religious raising still exists. Hope can be nice, but it can also be a terrible thing... leading people on.
 
I'm not implying anything. I am just sincerely curious as to why he's appeared to have gone 180 degrees from Christianity and yet still has the "feeling" that homosexual behavior is wrong? Perhaps he's not as "convicted" by his recent "conversion" as he seems to have convinced himself he is? :shrug:

He didn't say it was wrong, he said he found it personally disgusting. There's nothing wrong with that, there are plenty of things that I find personally disgusting, I just don't think we should penalize people for doing them.
 
He didn't say it was wrong, he said he found it personally disgusting. There's nothing wrong with that, there are plenty of things that I find personally disgusting, I just don't think we should penalize people for doing them.

Some fragment of a feeling that it is "wrong" remains.
This was what he said. Take it as you will. I interpreted it to mean that he's still conflicted regarding the morality of homosexual behavior. Perhaps I'm wrong. And I do agree with you that there's nothing "wrong" with feeling that way.

Also, I'm not implying that he feels this way because it may contradict the "natural order" of things either. :shrug:
 
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Religion from my perspective has been used as a tool to influence and control the hopeful masses. It was stronger in the past—one could be killed for questioning or disbelieving in a religion. What society has been experiencing for quite some time, I think, is the gradual weakening of religion's hold on the people.

You are right about that. What I think you aren't seeing is that people are switching from organized religion, as a means of self-control, to government ideology (belief in government as the savior of humanity and arbiter of right and wrong), which can, without a doubt, be just as coercive and controlling. I'd personally prefer the former, as when people place their belief in the infallibility of men and individuals, they are setting themselves up for failure.
 
You are right about that. What I think you aren't seeing is that people are switching from organized religion, as a means of self-control, to government ideology (belief in government as the savior of humanity and arbiter of right and wrong), which can, without a doubt, be just as coercive and controlling. I'd personally prefer the former, as when people place their belief in the infallibility of men and individuals, they are setting themselves up for failure.

I prefer neither.
 
You are right about that. What I think you aren't seeing is that people are switching from organized religion, as a means of self-control, to government ideology (belief in government as the savior of humanity and arbiter of right and wrong), which can, without a doubt, be just as coercive and controlling. I'd personally prefer the former, as when people place their belief in the infallibility of men and individuals, they are setting themselves up for failure.

Self-control is overrated. In both scenarios, people are setting themselves up for failure. Like Cephus said, I prefer neither. We don't need either.
 
Self-control is overrated. In both scenarios, people are setting themselves up for failure. Like Cephus said, I prefer neither. We don't need either.

No, self-control isn't over-rated. A lack of it leads to wars, killing, and betrayals of all kinds.
 
Self-control is overrated. In both scenarios, people are setting themselves up for failure. Like Cephus said, I prefer neither. We don't need either.

The problem is, in both scenarios, it's not self-control, it's an external means of control of self. I prefer actual self-control, where you don't need to have an external means, but an internal means. You actually control yourself.
 
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