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Evolution vs Creationism?

stonewall50 said:
Your standards are ONLY science based? That is it?
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Indeed.

I will allow you to recalculate here. Murder and killing are different. Murder is the unlawful and malicious killing of a fellow human being.
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Right. Was not bin Laden? Are not many troops opposing American diplomacy?

So again I ask: is that wrong? Do you have evidence that says murder is wrong?
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Nope. Hence why I don't think it is.

So to you reason, logic, and humanity never enter the equations when it comes to justification? Or are those traits exclusive to the "scientific peoples of atheism?"
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They certainly enter the "equation." It's reasonable and logical to say "there's no evidence for this so why is it posited as true?" That also happens to tie in well with atheism.

PS: You do conceede then that Creationists CAN believe in evolution, the big bang theory, and that I myself am NOT a young earther?
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You both make unwarranted claims. Yours haven't been disproven (yet) whereas YECs have. So I guess there's a small victory for you. Yay you.

I think I will wait to respond (see above). MURDER cannot objectively be stated as wrong? The killing of a fellow human with malicious intent. How about we replace murder with rape? Is rape objectively wrong?
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Neither is. You keep asking and my answer won't change.

Lest we also forget there's plenty of rape and pillaging in the OT that seemed to have "god's" approval.

This is beyond ad populum. We are talking virtually every civilization past, present, and future. It has no bearing even if virtually ever society has made murder a crime?
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That still doesn't mean it's wrong. Sheesh.

Are you saying that YOU know better than the vast majority of people?
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I'm saying I don't let weakened emotional states and fear dictate my life. I, instead, utilize logic and empiricism.

Or if you were dictator would you make murder illegal as well?
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Being a dictator is the opposite of what I want.

We are talking MURDER. I DO have a problem with murder. I DO believe that there are absolute morals. Murder and rape are 2 things that are NEVER permissable. Anyway...
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You believe that. You have no evidence to support it. Do not hold others to YOUR standards.

So what do you mean, "it just is?" What about rape? Do you disagree with rape? Or are you neutral?
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Same thing. It just is.
 
Van Basten said:
They're not. You can be a creationist and believe in Evolution in that God created the universe and set in motion all the natural processes we have come to discover. Creationism, if you don't take every part of the creation story literally, can harmonize with evolution and science. There's a middle ground.
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It's not really creationism if you don't believe God created man in his own image and that man evolved from other primates. There is really no middle ground but many relgous people are fine with keeping science seperate from scrtipture. Not many read much of Genesis anyway.
 
stonewall50 said:
I understand that. I think I would venture farther into this topic and say that I could accept a Big Bang theory as well.
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I reject the big bang theory on the basis that I believe more exists outside of the Universe.

Nothing really "kills" my idea that God exists. I have seen too many wonderful things in my life to believe otherwise. I think that is something that certain people can't grasp.
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I see wonderful things all the time, I just see them from a different perspective. I have no problem with theists, and I can understand that perspective because it wasn't so far back that I too believed in a god. My intent isn't to make you not believe in your religion, but to give my perspective.

I don't care about the "answer" to the God question. I don't need some kind of proof. The "proof" matters as much to me as does my shoe size to them. It offers me nothing, like my foot size gives them nothing. I already know God exists. I honestly believe that is the biggest problem. Not can I reconcile my faith and Science, but can THEY reconcile my faith without science? Some? Sure...others clearly not.
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What other people believe is of no consequence to me. As long as others don't try to make something my problem, I'm fine and dandy with others having different beliefs.
 
Surtr said:
I reject the big bang theory on the basis that I believe more exists outside of the Universe.
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You do know that the Big Bang Theory does not forbid a multiverse, yes? Ergo, your statement is illogical.
 
stonewall50 said:
I am just curious what people's views are on "creationism." I can look up the definition...I would like to see some views on what YOU think it is.

I personally do not feel that they are mutualy exclusive. I can reconcile evolution within my view of creation in terms of my religion. I just want other people to tell me what they believe.

It irritates me when someone assumes that because I believe in creationism...that I don't belive in Evolution. I do. I believe in both. But anyway. Let me know.
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Its a piss ass excuse to force religion on children in public schools.
 
I haven't ready through many responses, so it's likely I'm repeating many others. I believe in a literal, six 24-hour day creation. I also believe in evolution in a strict sense. People from different parts of the world having a distinct appearance is a good example of this. We are all Homo sapiens, but some of us have adapted to very hot environments and others have adapted to very coldenvironments if you look at pictures of sub-Saharan Africans and Aleutians, it's not hard to guess which location they're from. This is evolution within a species. I think evolution from a single source is absurd for lots of reasons.
 
spud_meister said:
If you were writing a holy book for a bronze age tribal group, having a seven day narrative would be more popular than nuclear fusion and gravitational singularities.
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Do you find it interesting that virtually all per-historic peoples had stories of creation and a great flood?
 
Paralogic said:
Creationism is religion. You can believe in it if you like.

Evolution is fact. What you do about it is irrelevant to the universe. If you reject it it's a sign of your lack of education.
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I assume you're talking about evolution as the source of life. Then how do you explain learned, incredibly intelligent people in all areas of science who support creation? Can't you see that dismissing creation as a possible source for the earth and all that lies within directs you to particular findings in research?
 
Machoid7 said:
Then how do you explain learned, incredibly intelligent people in all areas of science who support creation?
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All of them are ignorant idiots, and they know it.
 
Misbelief said:
Shifting the goal post. You made the claim it can create nothing new, he gave an example... This is how dishonest you are. You don't even admit that what you said is incorrect, you just shift and move on.
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Ease up on the dishonesty accusation. hfd wasn't shifting the goal post, merely walking to the next obvious step in the dialogue. There has never been an observation of a species evolving into another species, nor even genuine fossil evidence of such.
 
Machoid7 said:
Even if it is a few dozen, how do you explain that?
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Floods are a destructive event that occur all over the world. It's an event experienced by a lot of cultures, so it's only natural a few would mythologise it.
 
Paralogic said:
All of them are ignorant idiots, and they know it.
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The short bio of Dr. Keith H. Wanser, one of the contributors of "In Six Days: Why Fifty Scientists Choose to believe in Creation"

"Dr. Wanser is professor of physics, California State University, Fullerton. He holds a BA in physics from California State University, an MA in physics from the University of California, Irvine, and a PhD in condensed matter physics from the University of California, Irvine. Dr. Wanser, who specializes in novel and ultrasensitive optical fiber sensor devices, components, and techniques, has published over 30 refereed and 18 other technical papers and holds seven US patents. In 1996 he was the recipient of the School of Natural Sciences and Mathematics Outstanding Research Award."

Now, by what stretch can you possibly call Dr Wanser an ignorant idiot? Is your résumé 1/10 that impressive with regard to a grasp of science? This is the MAJOR problem with your crowd...you refuse to accept that you do NOT have all of academia and just plain common sense in your camp.
 
spud_meister said:
Floods are a destructive event that occur all over the world. It's an event experienced by a lot of cultures, so it's only natural a few would mythologise it.
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That's what I would say too if I believed what you do.
 
Machoid7 said:
Now, by what stretch can you possibly call [...] an ignorant idiot?
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At this point of our existence, anyone that refutes scientific knowledge is an ignorant idiot.

Scientists are people, and they may make claims that are not true for their ego gratification, but we already know a few basic truths that are incontrovertible... like, no gods exist, or gravity exists, and other simple truths like that.
 
Here's what I think: 100% of this is dictated by our worldview. I had a dialogue a while back with an atheist who didn't like the word worldview, so feel free to substitute a word of your preference. If you are an atheist, you CANNOT believe in creation. You must do everything within your powers, and believe whatever hocus-pocus comes along (i.e. the origin of life, completely unprovable by evolution, may have been seeded by aliens on the backs of crystals), to support your worldview. To allow even a shred of belief in creation would be to admit a Creationist, and if that were to be true, then you have MUCH bigger eternity-type questions to consider. I would venture to guess that virtually everyone on here who maintains a scientific view of all evolution/no creation is an atheist. Evolution requires a tremendous amount of faith because you can't prove the origin of life and I promise you've never observed evolution from one species to another...it's just a much different faith from those of us who believe in a Creator God who loves us and seeks to have a relationship with His created beings.
 
Paralogic said:
At this point of our existence, anyone that refutes scientific knowledge is an ignorant idiot.
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You are much bolder than I to call a respected, awarded, research physicist an ignorant idiot just because he is able to refute the scientific knowledge you deem factual with provable science of his own. BTW, I didn't catch your science credentials. Please, Paralogic, I'm begging you, cease with the name-calling of people who don't think exactly like you.
 
Machoid7 said:
Please, Paralogic, I'm begging you, cease with the name-calling of people who don't think exactly like you.
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People thoughts are irrelevant to the universe. My thoughts are irrelevant, as are any other human's.

Reality is independent of the existence of human beings. If people don't acknowledge this fact then anything they say is false.
 
Paralogic said:
People thoughts are irrelevant to the universe. My thoughts are irrelevant, as are any other human's.

Reality is independent of the existence of human beings. If people don't acknowledge this fact then anything they say is false.
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Then why do you bother sharing your thoughts?
 
Machoid7 said:
That's what I would say too if I believed what you do.
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And if I believed what you believed, I'd say that a Jewish god told a guy to build a barge, that contained two of each of the 1.9 million living things on earth, he then flooded the earth with rain, adding billions and billions of liters of water to the water cycle, only then to make that water vanish after an arbitrary length of time, and then this bloke and all these things repopulated the earth, ending up with localised species populations, despite the barge being unloaded on the Sinai Peninsula. And then this event was remembered by many cultures, but with only a handful of tribes in Israel remembering what really happened.

Or it could be what I said. Whichever you think is more likely.
 
Machoid7 said:
Then why do you bother sharing your thoughts?
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Because many people are ignorant about reality. They think that whatever crosses their mind must be real. That's false.
 
Machoid7 said:
it's just a much different faith from those of us who believe in a Creator God who loves us and seeks to have a relationship with His created beings.
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And that's a different faith to those who believe in a many-armed death goddess.

You cannot know your particular faith is more correct than my particular faith, or a Hindu's particular faith. You can claim to have felt God, and I don't disbelieve you, but that could be because you have never tried to communicate with any other gods. And as I have never felt anything from any gods, I'll continue to believe they don't exist.
 
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