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God vs. The Big Bang

DashingAmerican

DashingAmerican

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I've always wondered this and always ask when I'm talking to my religious or scientific friends. Why does it have to be that God created the universe or the big bang happened? Why can't it be that God created the universe through the big bang?
 
DashingAmerican said:
I've always wondered this and always ask when I'm talking to my religious or scientific friends. Why does it have to be that God created the universe or the big bang happened? Why can't it be that God created the universe through the big bang?
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It did end of story. Unless you believe in the oscilating universe theory. Then It still did.
 
It makes no difference. Either you believe in an omniscient all powerful God who created the universe or you don't.
 
The big bangs out of date, even one of the originators of the theory now fully admits its full of holes & there are better ideas out there.

Dont put blind faith in science!
 
spanky said:
It makes no difference. Either you believe in an omniscient all powerful God who created the universe or you don't.
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There are other options, but that covers theists.
 
Trust me, I don't put blind faith into anything. I question EVERYTHING. I always tell people that I should be from Missouri because it's the show me state.
 
Paul Austin said:
The big bangs out of date, even one of the originators of the theory now fully admits its full of holes & there are better ideas out there.

Dont put blind faith in science!
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Shall we put our faith in a Stay Puffed Marshmallow man in the sky?
 
spanky said:
Shall we put our faith in a Stay Puffed Marshmallow man in the sky?
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If you want to, by all means, but personally I think its a little silly.
 
Paul Austin said:
If you want to, by all means, but personally I think its a little silly.
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Then I misread your comment.

I don't think anyone puts blind faith in science. By nature and definition it is an evolving realization that is constantly changed by new research, theories and application of the scientific method.
 
Paul Austin said:
The big bangs out of date, even one of the originators of the theory now fully admits its full of holes & there are better ideas out there.

Dont put blind faith in science!
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Science is a process of observing and predicting reality, not a collection of truths. The big bang is full of holes, but they will be filled by gathering new scientific evidence, not by saying "we don't know so god did it". Your rhetoric is especially hollow given that you put your faith in science when you sent a message through the internet.
 
rathi said:
Science is a process of observing and predicting reality, not a collection of truths. The big bang is full of holes, but they will be filled by gathering new scientific evidence, not by saying "we don't know so god did it"
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Isnt that exactly how we got the big bang theory?

Science was full of holes & no one had the answer so somebody made something up & saying "so the big bang did it"?

Most theories work that way (scientific, religious, philosophical). Theres a hole & people make stuff up to fill it. Sometimes the answer turns out to be right, sometimes like with the big bang it turns out to be wrong.

. Your rhetoric is especially hollow given that you put your faith in science when you sent a message through the internet.
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Not blind faith I didnt, besides the comment was not to be taken seriously, it was made in the knowledge that aetheist, many with blind faith would enter to mock the theists for their blind faith.

I find it amusing that some aetheist exhibit all the traits they despise in theists, and often based around blind faiths of there own.

I wasnt actually suggesting people ignore science, I mean that would be silly of me, especially given that I quoted the second law of thermo-dynamics on here earlier today.
 
Paul Austin said:
Isnt that exactly how we got the big bang theory?

Science was full of holes & no one had the answer so somebody made something up & saying "so the big bang did it"?

Most theories work that way (scientific, religious, philosophical). Theres a hole & people make stuff up to fill it. Sometimes the answer turns out to be right, sometimes like with the big bang it turns out to be wrong.
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I'm not 100% sure you understand science. The Big Bang wasn't just invented. There were measurements first and the theory of the Big Bang was calculated to explain the observables. In fact, the Big Bang theory met with stiff resistance from the scientific community when it first came out. It had to demonstrate that it could predict the observables and provide the best explanation of the observables.
 
Ikari said:
I'm not 100% sure you understand science.
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You reckon I was quoting the second law of thermo-dynamics for its poetic value then?

That could be a theory...

The Big Bang wasn't just invented. There were measurements first and the theory of the Big Bang was calculated to explain the observables.
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The idea must always come first, other wise how could we even measure. Our actions are not independant, they are governed by our thoughts. First we think the action, then we send the command to our body & our body performs the action.

The action itself is at the end of the process, our thoughts and our ideas at the beginning, so we have to make things up, its our only way to evolve.

In fact, the Big Bang theory met with stiff resistance from the scientific community when it first came out. It had to demonstrate that it could predict the observables and provide the best explanation of the observables.
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& look how it ended up, now its the old boy on the block & on its way out. A bit of a shame for all those who put their faith in it & believed in it as the one true answer.
 
DashingAmerican said:
Why can't it be that God created the universe through the big bang?
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The Big Bang is supported by empirical evidence.

The claim for a god is usually a wish that some supernatural power will tilt a slot machine to the favor of the gambler/believer.

So, first you have to define your own particular flavor of a "god" before you pose such questions. Do you mean the Abrahamic god that can kill and make untold numbers of humans suffer just for his entertainment pleasure? Do you mean a Hinduistic god that has a multiple personality issue... in the thousands... ? Do you mean volcano gods or tree gods or spirit gods?

Let me help you with the answer. No gods exist.
 
Paul Austin said:
You reckon I was quoting the second law of thermo-dynamics for its poetic value then?

That could be a theory...



The idea must always come first, other wise how could we even measure. Our actions are not independant, they are governed by our thoughts. First we think the action, then we send the command to our body & our body performs the action.

The action itself is at the end of the process, our thoughts and our ideas at the beginning, so we have to make things up, its our only way to evolve.



& look how it ended up, now its the old boy on the block & on its way out. A bit of a shame for all those who put their faith in it & believed in it as the one true answer.
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What do you mean the Big Bang theory is on its way out the door? It is still the prevailing cosmological model for the development of the universe. Last I checked the same CMBR evidence that was so convincing 1960's holds true today, and we have fortified that knowledge a great deal in the intervening decades.
 
Sherman123 said:
What do you mean the Big Bang theory is on its way out the door? It is still the prevailing cosmological model for the development of the universe. Last I checked the same CMBR evidence that was so convincing 1960's holds true today, and we have fortified that knowledge a great deal in the intervening decades.
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Then you need to catch up on scientific reading as even from those who proposed the theory you now have voices admitting its not the best model.

To be fair it always had holes. Years ago, amidst the joy of "discovery" & the human race patting itself on the back, most people were willing to over look those holes, but time moves on.

Dont get me wrong, most of what happened next is widely incorporated & some of it even proven, but the actual big bang theory is now accepted as flawed, but thats science for you.
 
Paul Austin said:
Then you need to catch up on scientific reading as even from those who proposed the theory you now have voices admitting its not the best model.

To be fair it always had holes. Years ago, amidst the joy of "discovery" & the human race patting itself on the back, most people were willing to over look those holes, but time moves on.

Dont get me wrong, most of what happened next is widely incorporated & some of it even proven, but the actual big bang theory is now accepted as flawed, but thats science for you.
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You seem to either be conflating adjustments and corrections over time with incorrectness of the general theory which is completely disingenuous, or you are flat out incorrect.
 
Sherman123 said:
You seem to either be conflating adjustments and corrections over time with incorrectness of the general theory which is completely disingenuous, or you are flat out incorrect.
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You'll find if you read all the latest science journals etc., that both of your guesses are wrong.

Eta. Obviously opinions will vary but Im going with people like Stephen Hawkings & Sir Roger Penrose on this, who have identified some of the obvious flaws in the old theory & who now hold to, or are looking for, an alternative position.
 
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rathi said:
Science is a process of observing and predicting reality, not a collection of truths. The big bang is full of holes, but they will be filled by gathering new scientific evidence, not by saying "we don't know so god did it". Your rhetoric is especially hollow given that you put your faith in science when you sent a message through the internet.
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That isn't a god of the gaps argument, the big bang POINTS toward a potential trancendancy to the universe, previously atheists argued that the universe was eternal, so the argument isn't "we don't know everything, so we'll just say God," its "we learned the universe probably has a begining as does space and time, and that points to trancendance which can supports the idea of God."
 
RGacky3 said:
That isn't a god of the gaps argument, the big bang POINTS toward a potential trancendancy to the universe, previously atheists argued that the universe was eternal, so the argument isn't "we don't know everything, so we'll just say God," its "we learned the universe probably has a begining as does space and time, and that points to trancendance which can supports the idea of God."
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indeed, the very fact we've yet to explain how the big bang originated leaves open the possibility of a god 'spark' at the beginning.
 
RGacky3 said:
That isn't a god of the gaps argument, the big bang POINTS toward a potential trancendancy to the universe, previously atheists argued that the universe was eternal, so the argument isn't "we don't know everything, so we'll just say God," its "we learned the universe probably has a begining as does space and time, and that points to trancendance which can supports the idea of God."
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No it doesn't.
 
spanky said:
Shall we put our faith in a Stay Puffed Marshmallow man in the sky?
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Silly Spanky. The Stay Puffed Marshmallow man is in NYC, not the sky. ;)

spanky said:
Then I misread your comment.

I don't think anyone puts blind faith in science. By nature and definition it is an evolving realization that is constantly changed by new research, theories and application of the scientific method.
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Tell that to the GW fanatics. Well really just about anyone who claims the science is all in, there is no change. On any given topic.
 
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roflpublican said:
indeed, the very fact we've yet to explain how the big bang originated leaves open the possibility of a god 'spark' at the beginning.
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That was what I used to believe back when I was a deist. But back then I had a misconception about what the Big Bang theory actually is, as apparently you and MANY other do.

The Big Bang does not state that the universe popped into existence out of nothing. In VERY simple terms it states that at some point in the past all the energy/matter that makes up our universe was condensed into a singularity and then rapidly expanded. There is no violation of the laws of thermodynamics as it does not propose that energy was created.

And when people ask things like "but what happened BEFORE the Big bang", it displays a fundamental lack of understanding in what space time is and how time is an emergent property of a physical universe. It is hard to believe for some because it is not intuitive and really cannot be comprehended by the human mind without some serious mathematics. Just as the concept that time appears to slow down relative to others as your speed approaches the speed of light or as you approach a gravitational field. It takes an Einstein-like mind to intuit such things. And no, I certainly don't claim to have such a mind.
 
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Sarcogito said:
That was what I used to believe back when I was a deist. But back then I had a misconception about what the Big Bang theory actually is, as apparently you and MANY other do.

The Big Bang does not state that the universe popped into existence out of nothing. In VERY simple terms tt states that at some point in the past all the energy/matter that makes up our universe was condensed into a singularity and then rapidly expanded. There is no violation of the laws of thermodynamics as it does not propose that energy was created.

And when people ask things like "but what happened BEFORE the Big bang", it displays a fundamental lack of understanding in what space time is and how time is an emergent property of a physical universe. It is hard to believe for some because it is not intuitive and really cannot be comprehended by the human mind without some serious mathematics. Just as the concept that time appears to slow down relative to others as your speed approaches the speed of light or as you approach a gravitational field. It takes an Einstein-like mind to intuit such things. And no, I certainly don't claim to have such a mind.
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but how can the universe get to a point where all matter/energy is in one place when we know the universe/all matter/all energy in the universe is accelerating away from us?
Redshift - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

seems to me theres no way for the universe to ever get back to the point where a big bang-like event with everything in one place can occur, so by definition the universe is eternal because it will last for an infinite period beyond the big bang. so, a big bang cannot occur within the context of our universe, short of some force causing all that matter/energy to return to one point.
 
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