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Who killed Jesus?

I'm still learning, thanks for the heads up.

can i get an answer to the moral question .. GOSHIN??
 
falconduler said:
... you have no moral right to say anything about the christian faith.
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Medusa bears responsibility for things which, afaik, occurred long before Medusa was born?
Fascinating. Do you have a pamphlet?
 
falconduler said:
You can answer this question easily by reading the historical record as outlined in the four Gospels and throughout the New testament. For some reason many do not know the obvious answer. DO YOU?
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Yes. He is not dead.
 
falconduler said:
You can answer this question easily by reading the historical record as outlined in the four Gospels and throughout the New testament. For some reason many do not know the obvious answer. DO YOU?
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Religion is a farce. Jesus if he existed was no different than you or I.
 
I dunno. But it was stupid to kill him before he could fix the roof.
 
falconduler said:
You can answer this question easily by reading the historical record as outlined in the four Gospels and throughout the New testament. For some reason many do not know the obvious answer. DO YOU?
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Saint Longinus killed Jesus.

What do I win?
 
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OnWisconsin said:
Religion is a farce. Jesus if he existed was no different than you or I.
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I'll tell him you said that, he can always use a good laugh.
 
In my understanding, the moral responsibility lies with the religious leaders who had corrupted the real faith and were more concerned with their own position of power than with God's will.

It's a recurring theme. The old authorities, often even those who spoke in the name of religion, persecuted and attempted to kill every messenger of God the moment he came. While simple people, without much education and knowledge, recognized God's word and followed the prophets. No priest was among Jesus' disciples, as far as I know, but a simple fisherman was.

When Noah warned his people of the flood, they ridiculed him. Moses was searched for murder after he had manslaughtered a guy who fought with a fellow Hebrew, and Pharao did his best to silence Moses.

When Jesus came, the religious authorities, well studied people, all condemned Jesus, because he contradicted their dogma and threatened their worldly power.

When Mohammed came, the same happened among Jews and Christians in his region: The religious authorities denied his authority and at times joined the polytheist barbarians to fight him.

And when the Bab and Baha'u'llah appeared in 19th century Persia, the Muslims clerics did exactly the same, murdered the Bab along with 20.000 of his followers and imprisoned Baha'u'llah for the rest of his life in an exile city -- with the exact same arguments and reasons the Phariseans brought up against Jesus almost 2000 years before.

If you ever happen to witness the coming of new prophet of God -- don't ask the clerics for answers. ;)
 
Medusa said:
he wasnt killed..another one who looked like him was killed instead of jesus....

qoran says it...
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Well, Quran is not unambiguous about it, as far as I understand it:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
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—Qur'an, Sura 4 (An-Nisa): 157-158

Islamic view of Jesus' death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can understand this verse just like many Christians understand it: Jesus Christ was crucified, but that doesn't mean he is dead. His spirit and his message from God is more alive than ever.

Martyrdom often provides a cause with a power it wouldn't have without it.

In my opinion, too literal interpretations are silly.
 
German guy said:
Well, Quran is not unambiguous about it, as far as I understand it:


—Qur'an, Sura 4 (An-Nisa): 157-158

Islamic view of Jesus' death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can understand this verse just like many Christians understand it: Jesus Christ was crucified, but that doesn't mean he is dead. His spirit and his message from God is more alive than ever.

Martyrdom often provides a cause with a power it wouldn't have without it.

In my opinion, too literal interpretations are silly.
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i never take it literally but this issue is very important ,and all religious authorities agree that christ was really never killed..
 
Medusa said:
i never take it literally but this issue is very important ,and all religious authorities agree that christ was really never killed..
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Well, most Muslim religious authorities also agree that apostates should be punished with death, that Sharia law must be introduced and that God is not a loving, but a vengeful God. Most Muslim authorities also claim that "Seal of the Prophets" means that "His hands are sealed", the same thing the Jews said when Jesus came.

I wouldn't believe the Muslim clerics. They are very far from the truth, just like the Jewish clerics who persecuted Jesus and His followers. They are more concerned with their worldly power than with God's truth.

But hey, that's just my opinion. ;)
 
German guy said:
Well, most Muslim religious authorities also agree that apostates should be punished with death, that Sharia law must be introduced and that God is not a loving, but a vengeful God. Most Muslim authorities also claim that "Seal of the Prophets" means that "His hands are sealed", the same thing the Jews said when Jesus came.

I wouldn't believe the Muslim clerics. They are very far from the truth, just like the Jewish clerics who persecuted Jesus and His followers. They are more concerned with their worldly power than with God's truth.

But hey, that's just my opinion. ;)
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god says he is not his son and he is just a prophet ,i dont claim ,god claims this . ,also god claims another one who looked like christ was killed.it has only one meaning.......
 
Medusa said:
god says he is not his son and he is just a prophet ,i dont claim ,god claims this . ,also god claims another one who looked like christ was killed.it has only one meaning.......
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No, it obviously has more than just one meaning. Even Quran says it has hidden meanings:

Indeed, it is a noble Qur'an
In a Register well-protected;
None touch it except the purified.
[It is] a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
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- Quran, Sura 56: 77-80

So the real meanings of Quran are "well protected" and only "the purified" will really understand them. So taking it literally can be misleading.

One possible meaning, I explained already: Jesus' body was crucified and died, his soul was taken up to heaven, but his spirit and his message came to real life -- and it has never died! With every year after the crucification, Christianity spread and gained new supporters, and Christ became more and more alive. Jesus is still with us, like Mohammed is.
 
Medusa said:
god says he is not his son and he is just a prophet ,i dont claim ,god claims this . ,also god claims another one who looked like christ was killed.it has only one meaning.......
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That depends on whether one accepts the Quran as God's word or not...
 
German guy said:
No, it obviously has more than just one meaning. Even Quran says it has hidden meanings:


- Quran, Sura 56: 77-80

So the real meanings of Quran are "well protected" and only "the purified" will really understand them. So taking it literally can be misleading.

One possible meaning, I explained already: Jesus' body was crucified and died, his soul was taken up to heaven, but his spirit and his message came to real life -- and it has never died! With every year after the crucification, Christianity spread and gained new supporters, and Christ became more and more alive. Jesus is still with us, like Mohammed is.
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maybe you are true..but who was that man looking like him.:mrgreen:

note .hidden messages are usually involved in the verses that are about secrets of teh universe
 
Medusa said:
maybe you are true..but who was that man looking like him.:mrgreen:
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I don't know the Arabic language, so I have to refer to translations of Quran, so correct me if I'm wrong ... but I don't see any clear statement in that verse that those who attempted to crucify Jesus, in reality, crucified someone else.

The verse said that it *appeared* to them like they were crucifying Jesus.

In my interpretation, that's because they thought by killing his body, they can kill his spirit and his message too. But that's why they were wrong: They believed they crucified God's prophet, but in reality, his spirit was immortal, and so is his message.
 
Goshin said:
That depends on whether one accepts the Quran as God's word or not...
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yes , but i am always trying to be objective while discussing the religions..
 
German guy said:
I don't know the Arabic language, so I have to refer to translations of Quran, so correct me if I'm wrong ... but I don't see any clear statement in that verse that those who attempted to crucify Jesus, in reality, crucified someone else.

The verse said that it *appeared* to them like they were crucifying Jesus.

In my interpretation, that's because they thought by killing his body, they can kill his spirit and his message too. But that's why they were wrong: They believed they crucified God's prophet, but in reality, his spirit was immortal, and so is his message.
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i would understand it this way if i didnt see its turkish translations.you are right.i will try to find another translation,but have to sleep now goodnight .)))))
 
Medusa said:
i would understand it this way if i didnt see its turkish translations.you are right.i will try to find another translation,but have to sleep now goodnight .)))))
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Was very nice talking with you! Sleep well! :)
 
Medusa said:
when was new testament written ?? a few hundred years after the fact ??
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~50-100 AD. The first being Paul's epistles and perhaps Matthew (written to Jews), and the last being John, his Epistles and Revelations (primarily concerned with Jesus' divinity). We have copies ~2-300 AD, showing widespread circulation of the NT. Peter calls Paul's Epistles Scripture. John writes and dies last. Mark (to the Romans) was largely translated from Peter; Luke was a physician writing to the Greeks.
 
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ecofarm said:
~50-100 AD. The first being Paul's epistles and perhaps Matthew (written to Jews), and the last being John, his Epistles and Revelations (primarily concerned with Jesus' divinity). We have copies ~2-300 AD, showing widespread circulation of the NT. Peter calls Paul's Epistles Scripture. John writes and dies last. Mark (to the Romans) was largely translated from Peter; Luke was a physician writing to the Greeks.
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why are you still atheist ? join us now!:2razz:
 
From my understanding Goshin and German guy are correct it was the Sanhedrin through the Romans that killed Jesus. They were jealous and afraid of his ability to perform miracles and speak a message of peace and love to the people that they would lose their influence, position, power and money. The Romans didn't care, Pilot and Herod were slightly afraid and the populace easily swayed. It was a combination of avarice and apathy.

As to why Jesus let them kill his body I believe was to break His previous covenant with Moses and the people that if they should keep His commandants they would live. And since nobody can keep all the commandants for a whole lifetime we perish. Other words God gave us a chance to earn life but nobody has the ability because we're not humble or flawless enough. He came here to save us from pain and death but the rulers and people would have no part of His dominion, so He paid the price for our arrogance.

He could've taken away the peoples free will without anyone knowing but He didn't make us to be slaves or He could've destroyed His opposition with a mere thought but He didn't believe in using His superior force for that reason. He would've had to kill continually to enforce His rule. By allowing humans self rule and the free will to vanquish His presence He made them His equals on earth and in Heaven. But we must also carry our own cross and follow His example of humility to enter the everlasting. I believe God would have loved nothing more than to avoid all of our sufferings but then we would have no appreciation for anything, even Him.
 
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