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What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,drugs

Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

solletica said:
Minarchism is inherently incompatible with the overarching Libertarian ideal of minimal government
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You type words, but give every indication that you don't know what they mean.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian?

Ikari said:
Minarchism is the minimization of government, not it's abolition.
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Well, that can be said about a lot. A good number of anarchists still want a govenment - granted, not to the extent that minarchists do.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

all this crap about bashing libertarians....I don't care who you are, everyone needs a little libertarianism in them. liberty, liberty to make your own choices, make your own destiny. the question is, how much of this can you allow, before it possibly becomes threat to the stability and wellbeing of the society in general, and puts others at a major disadvantage. I feel like there are people on this thread who are taking libertarianism to its extreme, to an Ayn Rand-esque extreme or beyond even that. It would be like if I took liberalism or conservatism to an extreme and said "all those who don't believe in the most extreme version of liberalism, are all ignorant uneducated idiots, and I'm smarter than everyone else, go read a book" blah blah blah. how a bout you get the hell of your high horse, and deal in reality for a change? you can be considered mostly a libertarian, and still support a certain level of law and order to keep society functioning at its maximum capacity. that argument is just over where that line is.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy

Paralogic said:
People that pretend to know what Libertarianism is are often ignorant.
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neo-classical liberalism is pretty much what they are thinking what libertarianism means. There is no general consensus among scholars on the precise definition of Liberatarianism anymore, but yes, there is a form of it that was the original libertarianism that was closer to anarchist.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

So I am wonder if Mr Paralogic has been sent packing in the face of cited supported evidence trumping unknown source evidence, of if he is actually taking the time to read over this new found wealth of information that he didn't seem to have to begin with.

Did anyone else catch that the Wikipedia he was using was not the main site?
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

TNAR said:
You make the further mistake of equating anarchy with chaos. Anarchy is simply the lack of directed rule or state.
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Before I forget to respond to this comment, I agree with you. Not on me making a mistake, I'm never wrong about anything, but about your comment about anarchy, which is definitely not what 99.9% of self-proclaimed Libertarians think about this term which is a central idea to Libertarianism.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

solletica said:
Libertarianism, in a nutshell, means

1) Pure free market. Zero taxes and no constraints on who businesses can hire (i. e. no ban on "undocumented workers") and who can work. No constraints on contracts between individuals and organizations. No regulation on sale/distribution of anything, i. e. coke, marijuana, missiles, planes, tanks, automatic weapons.

No border laws restricting exchange of goods or flow of labor

2) Disarmed government. People have the guns, government has the courts, funded voluntarily by the people

3) Property rights. All stolen/seized land and resources returned to their rightful/original owners (including Native populations if applicable)

4) Zero regulation on private/consensual behavior on private property. No "gay marriage" bans, cohabitation Amendments, etc.

The above 4 is a Libertarian's dream, and republikan's nightmare :)
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Thank you!

Not that I agree with any of these, but, finally, some knowledgeable person is saying what Libertarianism is, ... other than me! :)
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

maquiscat said:
So I am wonder if Mr Paralogic has been sent packing in the face of cited supported evidence trumping unknown source evidence....
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???

I think the more substantiated posts in this thread from knowledgeable posters support my argument!
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:
???

I think the more substantiated posts in this thread from knowledgeable posters support my argument!
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Did you even look at the links I provided?
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

maquiscat said:
Did you even look at the links I provided?
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I'm sorry, no.

Even though I did posted links myself, I tried to either quote important quotes or direct people what was important about the links I posted.

I generally think that all links are SPAM. If someone can't express, even on online forum simple talk, what they're talking about, then they're not worth listening to.

In this particular case, I've said that a subjective view of what Libertarianism is about is like what the religious do when they pick and choose which particular belief they will adhere to in their religion and then claim they are a member of that religion.

Libertarianism is an ideology that promotes the absence any social or governmental authority over the behavior of any individual in the society. If people are unaware of this basic tenet of Libertarianism then it's a waste of time to talk to them about anything.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:
I'm sorry, no.

Even though I did posted links myself, I tried to either quote important quotes or direct people what was important about the links I posted.

I generally think that all links are SPAM. If someone can't express, even on online forum simple talk, what they're talking about, then they're not worth listening to.

In this particular case, I've said that a subjective view of what Libertarianism is about is like what the religious do when they pick and choose which particular belief they will adhere to in their religion and then claim they are a member of that religion.

Libertarianism is an ideology that promotes the absence any social or governmental authority over the behavior of any individual in the society. If people are unaware of this basic tenet of Libertarianism then it's a waste of time to talk to them about anything.
Click to expand...

Did you even read the highlight portions that I included with my link?
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:
I generally think that all links are SPAM. If someone can't express, even on online forum simple talk, what they're talking about, then they're not worth listening to.
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At this point I will have to guess that you are conceding as you went off and participated in many other threads after responding and never coming back. You understand, I would hope, that the above line translates into "My mind is made up, don't try to confuse me with facts". You said go look up "Liberalism" on Wikipedia". I did and provided quotes and a link that disproved your point. You provided a link to a Stanford University paper. I went to that paper and quoted it to show where your premise was wrong. You post an actual screenshot of a wiki page that supports what you claim. Bravo, that was the first real support of your position. However, I then went back checked your source and found that it had no citation, no backup, no support. Effectively it is opinion. I provided the link to the real Wikipedia article, complete with citations and bibliography, fully supported by evidence as to how accurate the information was.

I don't blame you for capitulating.

Paralogic said:
Wikipedia is not the indisputable source on anything, but at least it provides general knowledge for people that are unaware of it, even for issues that they think are important to them.
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I've pointed out the general knowledge that you are unaware of and gave you a direct link to it. But not only are you unwilling to go look at it, you didn't even bother to respond to what I quoted in the same post, exactly what you said I should do in the first quote of your in this post.

If your point is valid in any kind of empirical sense then you need to provide evidence to back it up. Of the two pieces you've presented I took one and showed you where you misread it(Stanford) and completely undermined the other (simple.wikipedia.org). I provided an entire series of articles from the main wikipedia that refutes your position entirely AND provides supporting documentation.

Where is your support?
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Joechilli said:
What do you class as a modern Libertarian? Can you really be Right or Left leaning as a Libertarian?
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Yes.

Actual libertarianism, in my view, is the idea that you should be free to do as you wish. Often, however, your right to do as you wish conflicts with the right of another or others to do as they wish. Some balancing of these rights is required.

From that point, the question is who decides which rights should win out. Ron Paul conservatives think the market should decide. Liberaltarians think the democratic political process should decide.

That's how you wind up with right and left-leaning libertarians. This new idea that conservative libertarians are the only "real" libertarians is just them attempting to redefine the ideology and dismiss competing thought.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:
???

I think the more substantiated posts in this thread from knowledgeable posters support my argument!
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Well there's a convenient opinion.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:
Libertarianism is an ideology that promotes the absence any social or governmental authority over the behavior of any individual in the society. If people are unaware of this basic tenet of Libertarianism then it's a waste of time to talk to them about anything.
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No. Libertarianism is an ideology that promotes the support and proliferation of the individual's liberty. If you are unaware of Libertarianism's basic tenet, then it's a waste of time to talk to you about anything.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

maquiscat said:
If your point is valid in any kind of empirical sense then you need to provide evidence to back it up. [...]
Where is your support?
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I did already.

So, you claim Libertarianism supports a Government. In another article I quoted above from Wikipedia, there is a reference to some Libertarians that would accept Law Enforcement, a Judicial System and an Army, and nothing else. Other known Libertarians don't accept even these functions for a Government, which makes them Anarchists and that makes my point for that group, at least.

Let's take the minimal Gov. group that wants the Police, Judges and an Army. Who will establish the rules that those authorities will adhere to? Who will provide the checks and balances to make sure these Gov. bodies are an instrument of society and not its rulers? Do you expect each and every citizen of a country to vote on each and every rule that comes up for adjudication? No? I thought so. So, we'll need to have people's representatives to deal with these issues -- which is what Government is all about!

The self-professed Libertarian ideologues who make a concession for a very limited Government, like the Minarchists as the Wikipedia article calls them, are stupid ignorant idiots that knowingly and intentionally avoid the question of wanting a full fledged Government so they can reap the benefits of Governmental protection, and instead pretend that human societies will function peacefully and lovingly without the need of a broad range of rules and regulations, from banning child labor, to banning poison in foods, to enforcing safety measures in vehicles, and a myriad other things.

The only legitimate idea of Libertarianism worthy of evaluating and arguing about is anarchy. What the rest of the ignorant idiot Libertarian trash ideologues want to do is to pick and choose specific parts of a Government's functions that they see as beneficial to society, and then they pretend that those specific slices of a Government would function independently of other aspects of Government that they have enjoyed and benefited from in the democratic society they are grew up and living or lived in.

That's why I said if someone calls for a Government they're not Libertarians. They are ignorant of what they even claim to be.
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Forget links.

Here's the question: Do Libertarians want a Government or not? Their central ideology is so focused on Government and its role in society that this question is the most important for Libertarianism.

Wishful thinking of specific, surgically cut out and removed pieces of Government that will magically operate on their own, while getting rid of the rest of an organized political system is so juvenile of a political thought that's not worth discussing any more.

Unless a Libertarian says they're Anarchists, they are not worth paying any attention to. Most established political systems have ways to allow progress and improvement if society wants that to happen --- kind of like abolishing slavery by forcing people to obey a Governmental policy, something Libertarianism is vehemently against.

If people want to fantasize about having one soldier that keeps the peace in a nation, while the rest of the people live in harmony and respect each other's rights they can do so, but the rest of us don't have to pay any attention to them.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Ikari said:
No. Libertarianism is an ideology that promotes the support and proliferation of the individual's liberty.
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You don't seem to be aware that the above quote means absolutely nothing.

It's like religious beliefs... they live in the fantasies of the believers and nowhere else in reality.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:
Forget links.
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Translation: My mind is made up and I am too lazy to look at facts that are supported by the experts.

I will say it again. You are the one with the fantasy who will believe a document with no supporting references over a document with multiple references that lead back to experts in the field, which neither you or I are. But my arguments hold weight because they are backed by the experts, while yours has no backing, thus no weight, because the of the two documents you used, the wikipedia article isn't the real thing and I showed you in the Stanford article where it supports the opposite of your claims.

Here is reality: If you make a claim, you have to back it up with evidence that shows that it is backed up by those who know what they are talking about.

Here's the question: Do Libertarians want a Government or not? Their central ideology is so focused on Government and its role in society that this question is the most important for Libertarianism.

Wishful thinking of specific, surgically cut out and removed pieces of Government that will magically operate on their own, while getting rid of the rest of an organized political system is so juvenile of a political thought that's not worth discussing any more.

Unless a Libertarian says they're Anarchists, they are not worth paying any attention to. Most established political systems have ways to allow progress and improvement if society wants that to happen --- kind of like abolishing slavery by forcing people to obey a Governmental policy, something Libertarianism is vehemently against.

If people want to fantasize about having one soldier that keeps the peace in a nation, while the rest of the people live in harmony and respect each other's rights they can do so, but the rest of us don't have to pay any attention to them.
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Prove it! With real evidence not an opinion piece. Read my evidence and use it to show how I and the others are wrong. Your article has nothing to support it while mine has over 160 references to other works by experts on the first article alone and then goes on to. Disprove those references. If you can manage to dismiss even 10% as being part of a bias site, I'd be surprise. I had the courtesy to read completely through your presented evidence. Are you so lack courtesy as to read mine? Are you really that lazy?

You my friend are the one living the religious belief because nowhere in reality is there any supported evidence of your claims.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Paralogic said:
You don't seem to be aware that the above quote means absolutely nothing.

It's like religious beliefs... they live in the fantasies of the believers and nowhere else in reality.
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You don't seem to be aware of base Libertarian philosophy.
 
Re: What is a Libertarian? Do you agree with them on economy,energy,foreign policy,dr

Joechilli said:
What are your views on:

Economy

Alternative energy vs Traditional fossil fuel

Foreign Policy

War on Drugs

Society- i.e gang violence, urban decay, balance of wealth
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Economy:
The Economy have to change. Everybody have a right on getting what he need basically to live.
There must be a basic income without conditions.
This frees the people from dependence on income from deployment.
Work gets it´s worth, and no one will work under that payment that work is worth.

Alternative energy vs Traditional fossil fuel:
We need alternative energy. traditional fossil fuel is to much of value.

War on Drugs:
Nobody should be damed in using drugs.
 
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