Atheist don't believe in GOD but believe in medicine?

tessaesque said:

...is the OP serious?

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Seriously disturbed? Probably.

4Horsemen said:

Did somebody mention to them yet that the medicines they put their faith in to work, come from plants that GOD created ?

Or should we wait on the spoiler until later?....


sound off please. be nice. eace

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We don't have faith in medicine. You don't need to have faith in medicine, because its effects can be observed.

And very few medicines any more come from plants, most are synthetically created. And of course, there is no proof that god exists, or that he created plants.

Really, this is just a lot of silly nonsense.

Cephus said:

You haven't earned civility. You are on a debate forum where the whole point of posting is to engage in reasoned debate. Yet theists keep making unsupported claims about the fundamental nature of reality and refuse, pointedly, to demonstrate that any of those claims are at all valid or worthwhile. You are upset because you're posting nonsense and then getting hot and bothered when people don't take you at your word.

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Civility isn't earned Cephus. It is given. Clearly you are not willing to give it. You are treating people like crap because they believe in something. End of story. You can continue to act like a child and that is fine. This was my attempt to highlight to you that you treat people horribly for a terrible reason. Stop making excuses for your behavior cephus. They don't have a right to common decency, but it would certainly be nice if people didn't act like intollerant biggoted jerks. Clearly you believe otherwise.

See, if would be one thing if you showed up, posted what you believed and what evidence led you to that belief, then openly debated anyone who questioned your evidence or conclusion. That's how debates work. If you are actually convinced that these things are factually true, then you ought to want everyone to be convinced of them, yet you don't even try to convince anyone, you just make the claims over and over again.

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Cephus. 1) If I tried to convert non believers over this forum you would FREAK out. Not only that, but I don't think it is something I should try to do. So why should I try to convince people? Least of all you? 2) Faith isn't about proof. Did you miss that at seminary school? 3) I have provided plenty of evidence, and the evidence keeps providing itself every time you post anything on a thread. Your words are loaded with hate, petty insults, and general hostility and intollerance. I don't need to convince anyone of that. You do it for me.

I treat people the way they deserve to be treated. Like I said before, if someone came on here and posted about Bigfoot exactly the way that theists post about gods, I'd treat them exactly the same way. They are not engaging in debate, as called for by the forums in which they are posting. And no, my arguments are not going to get any traction with you because you didn't come to your beliefs through reason, you came to them through emotion. All the reason in the world won't convince you that they are wrong.

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To the underlined italics: no you don't. You just treat people badly.

To the Bold: This is absolutely the case of the pot calling the kettle black here bud. The only way you discuss something is with emotion. You are so hell bent on trying to give a smack down to people simply for believing something different than you that it is quite obvious to everyone that it is all projection and hatred from you. That is not rationality. That is certainly emotion over reason.

And your arguments won't get any traction because you are jerk to people. It has nothing to do with me. Maybe if you decided to start acting like an adult and treating people with some civility they would do the same to you.

If you want respect, act respectably

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Cephus the last thing I am seeking here is your respect, approval, or any form of acceptance. Cephus respect from you would not make my life enjoyable in the slightest. It is meaningless. It is clearly based upon something arbitrary. It has nothing to do with me being a good person. It is based on a shallow view of a person. If I had respect from you I am actually quite certain it would make me intollerable. It would make me such a jerk to good people that they would have no desire to ever be around me.

Debate your ideas and allow others to criticize them. Be interested in finding the truth, not just a comforting lie. I don't think you're interested in any of those things, at least you haven't demonstrated such, therefore

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Is that what has you all hot and bothered now? That I refuse to suffer a fool? That I refuse to allow you to try to hurt my faith? With every word of hate you speak bud, the stronger my faith grows. Cephus those things (truth and respect) I am interested in. That is why I don't listen to or seek them from you.

Cephus I really do feel bad for you. I question what your life is like outside of the compter. I really do. Not out of some misguided hatred, or wandering curiosity, or anything of that nature. It is out of genuine concern. Clearly something awful happened to you or else you would have no reason to be on such a crusade against religion. I really do pray for you. And I promise you really have helped me in my faith.

stonewall50 said:

Faith my friend. Proof is not needed when you have faith. It isn't something we need to reconcile. Do you need to reconcile that China exists? (assuming you have never been there). It is as easy to believe as that. It is not something that comes from the head, but the heart. The gut. You know. People like Cephus are angry at that. They can't handle that someone can believe without proof. Don't be that guy. Just recognize that people accept it on their gut. On faith. It is something you know without a gaurauntee. You don't have to believe. You don't have to reconcile it. Just accept that we believe. I can accept that you don't believe. I can understand why it is hard. Asking to believe in something so much that you could give your life for it and NOT having proof of it? Sure. When I use the logic center my brain says no way. That's stupid. But my brain would say the same thing about diving in front of a bullet for my family, girlfriend, or even a stranger. I'd still do it though. Faith doesn't have to reconcile logic, but it does have to reconcile what is right with my gut.

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lI have faith in science, I have faith in logic. I do not have faith in faith. I am not ready to deny that there is something other than what our minds seem to be confined to perceive as a personna, but I sure have a tough time buying into the "god" theory of a singular deity with the attribute assigned by various religious cults.

BTW: I know China is there because of many things: I have been there many times, I can see it from a satellite image, I can speak with credible people who have also seen it. I have yet to meet any credible being that has seen a real god and the images from all of those satellites come up blank as well.

4Horsemen said:

Did somebody mention to them yet that the medicines they put their faith in to work, come from plants that GOD created ?

Or should we wait on the spoiler until later?....


sound off please. be nice. eace

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Plants are an amazing and essential of our planet and predated animal life by millons of years. They alone make the oxygen that animal need to live. For that reason they are most certainly the 1st form of life on theis planet.
They are also chemical "laboratories" that can make compounds that we are unable to duplicate.
Breeding Sweet Peas was used to discover the secret of the inhertiance of traits thru genes.
Modern plants are the result of million of years of evolution and many early plants are known only through fossils.
What plants are certainly not is something created out of nowhere. They evolved here from that first blue-green algae that formed 3.5 to 4.5 TRILLION years agao

iguanaman said:

They evolved here from that first blue-green algae that formed 3.5 to 4.5 TRILLION years agao

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The human brain is incapable of comprehending vastly large numbers, but you need to be corrected.

The universe is 13.7 billion years old.

Earth is about 6 billion years old since the time of its initial planetary formation. Plants may have appeared soon after the vast quantities of water carried onto the earth's surface by comet collisions, maybe 3.5 billion years ago.

4Horsemen said:

Did somebody mention to them yet that the medicines they put their faith in to work, come from plants that GOD created ?

Or should we wait on the spoiler until later?....


sound off please. be nice. eace

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If I kick a ball and the ball moves, it stands to reason that my kick moved the ball and if I repeat the action the ball will... move. I do not need to have faith this will occur, or how it works. Likewise I can observe the effects of medicine on a human and determine its efficacy and results from direct observation and analysis. It is extremely functional.

4Horsemen said:

Did somebody mention to them yet that the medicines they put their faith in to work, come from plants that GOD created ?

Or should we wait on the spoiler until later?....


sound off please. be nice. eace

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If this isn't shennannigans then I'm putting twenty bucks on the OP being home schooled.

marduc said:

Does this mean I have to stop believing in oxygen and water too?

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And gravity.

(Jesus H., I believe in God and I think this thread is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a while.)

Cardinal said:

If this isn't shennannigans then I'm putting twenty bucks on the OP being home schooled.

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I'm putting 5 bucks on that he flunked out of the dining room.

cannuck said:

lI have faith in science, I have faith in logic. I do not have faith in faith. I am not ready to deny that there is something other than what our minds seem to be confined to perceive as a personna, but I sure have a tough time buying into the "god" theory of a singular deity with the attribute assigned by various religious cults.
.

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And that is totally fine. As long as you do not attack others for having faith that is all that really matters. The way I see it is that it isn't faith in science or logic. That is something with proof. Faith is something you accept without proof.

BTW: I know China is there because of many things: I have been there many times, I can see it from a satellite image, I can speak with credible people who have also seen it. I have yet to meet any credible being that has seen a real god and the images from all of those satellites come up blank as well.

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But you DO understand what I mean correct? Something that you take on credit. Something you take by being told. Not shown.

stonewall50 said:

And that is totally fine. As long as you do not attack others for having faith that is all that really matters. The way I see it is that it isn't faith in science or logic. That is something with proof. Faith is something you accept without proof.



But you DO understand what I mean correct? Something that you take on credit. Something you take by being told. Not shown.

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It is possible to verify that China exists. China is not a hypothetical construct.

stonewall50 said:

Faith is something you accept without proof.

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Why would you ever accept anything without evidence to support it, especially the existence of Gods which, according to some here, there can never be any evidence for?

But you DO understand what I mean correct? Something that you take on credit. Something you take by being told. Not shown.

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I don't take anything just because I'm told that it's true, I weigh whether it's a reasonable claim and for those that are not, I demand evidence. Faith is idiotic.

Thorgasm said:

It is possible to verify that China exists. China is not a hypothetical construct.

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You know, I have been to Wyoming a few times, and I still have my doubts as to whether that place is real or not.

I do understand what the post was getting at though, people take it on faith that a lot of things exist outside of direct personal observation. I have never seen China but the amount of trustworthy people saying it is there from Google earth to the evening news leads me to conclude it is most likely a real place, not some grand hoax.

Cephus said:

Why would you ever accept anything without evidence to support it, especially the existence of Gods which, according to some here, there can never be any evidence for?



I don't take anything just because I'm told that it's true, I weigh whether it's a reasonable claim and for those that are not, I demand evidence. Faith is idiotic.

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See this is exactly the kind of hostile response I am talking about. Cepheus just because you demand something doesn't mean you will get it.You must have a tough life because i know i personally could care less what you demand. How do you operate in life that rarely, if ever, gives you proof? How do you cope with the concept of love?

If you can't accept something without proof that is your problem. Not mine. Yoi could have gone through the entire post you had just done without being rude . Yet you just had to be insulting and say that last little bit huh? You really have that big of an issue with faith? That you must belittle it and insult those go have it? Cephus I really do feel bad for you. You help my faith grow and yet still ignore that and must rudely insult me and those who have faith.

Thorgasm said:

It is possible to verify that China exists. China is not a hypothetical construct.

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No offense, but not really the point. There are a lot of things that we do accept on faith. Love, moon landings, and so on. To say that trustworthy people say it exists is part of what I mean. How do you know you can trust them? Only on faith. Faith is part trust. We all have doubts, but faith is getting past those. I certain you understand what I mean. Cepheus is another story.

stonewall50 said:

No offense, but not really the point. There are a lot of things that we do accept on faith.

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Not really.

Love

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Nope.

moon landings, and so on.

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There's evidence of travelling to the moon.

To say that trustworthy people say it exists is part of what I mean. How do you know you can trust them? Only on faith. Faith is part trust. We all have doubts, but faith is getting past those. I certain you understand what I mean. Cepheus is another story.

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Or you can investigate yourself.

stonewall50 said:

No offense, but not really the point. There are a lot of things that we do accept on faith. Love, moon landings, and so on. To say that trustworthy people say it exists is part of what I mean. How do you know you can trust them? Only on faith. Faith is part trust. We all have doubts, but faith is getting past those. I certain you understand what I mean. Cepheus is another story.

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What exactly about a thousands of years old book or members of the clergy are trustworthy?

Paschendale said:

What exactly about a thousands of years old book or members of the clergy are trustworthy?

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Are you telling me that Alice in Wonderland isn't a true story? My trustworthy brother said it was.....

Paschendale said:

What exactly about a thousands of years old book or members of the clergy are trustworthy?

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I think you simply must experience the presence and power of God to truly understand it. The only "proof" which those of true Faith can provide is the "proof" of personal, spiritual experience. There is really no way to describe (to those who haven't experienced it) the change of heart, mind, and soul that it brings.......instantly! All of the debate in the world won't change this. And the fact is, if Christ himself, returned today floating down from a cloud and began performing miracles again.........sadly, there'd still be those who would deny him. This has always been the case and always will be. I don't think that God ever intended that his children defend his existence using empirical parameters devised by man's rationality......it kind of flies in the face of who He is and what the concept of Faith is all about. :shrug:

So, we're left to deal with the "haters" and "detractors" of our faith and spirituality.......and you know what they say about "haters":

stonewall50 said:

There are a lot of things that we do accept on faith. Love, moon landings, and so on. To say that trustworthy people say it exists is part of what I mean. How do you know you can trust them? Only on faith. Faith is part trust. We all have doubts, but faith is getting past those. I certain you understand what I mean. Cepheus is another story.

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I don't take any of those things on faith. Faith is belief in something for which no evidence exists. There's plenty of evidence for those things. But do try again.

FluffyNinja said:

I think you simply must experience the presence and power of God to truly understand it. The only "proof" which those of true Faith can provide is the "proof" of personal, spiritual experience. There is really no way to describe (to those who haven't experienced it) the change of heart, mind, and soul that it brings.......instantly!

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I know exactly the feeling you're talking about. I've experienced it. It's not god. I used to think it was, too, when I was young and didn't know any better. Now I do.

All of the debate in the world won't change this. And the fact is, if Christ himself, returned today floating down from a cloud and began performing miracles again.........sadly, there'd still be those who would deny him.

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No, there wouldn't. Because he'd do it on live television and in front of witnesses. Lots of witnesses. And skeptical people would see it. Credible, trustworthy people would see it. Not just whoever happened to be at a wedding with him, and major newspapers and tv networks would chronicle it. There would be reliable evidence.

This has always been the case and always will be. I don't think that God ever intended that his children defend his existence using empirical parameters devised by man's rationality......it kind of flies in the face of who He is and what the concept of Faith is all about.

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Then god is a fool for making us rational creatures. And no, that is not what faith is about. Faith is about trust. It's not about turning off your brain. The medieval church that emphasized faith so much wasn't talking about thinking god exists or not. They all thought god existed. That wasn't a matter of faith. They took it as a given. It was about trusting god. Faith is no more about thinking god exists without evidence than it is about thinking unicorns do.

So, we're left to deal with the "haters" and "detractors" of our faith and spirituality.......and you know what they say about "haters":

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We're not haters. We just want to know the truth, and don't accept when someone else tells us they know the truth and can't back it up.

:doh
Believing in science based clinical medicine is not equatable with faith.

I believe in God and in medicine, the two are in no way competitive or somehow invalidating of the other.

Paschendale said:

I know exactly the feeling you're talking about. I've experienced it. It's not god. I used to think it was, too, when I was young and didn't know any better. Now I do.

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Based on your response alone.....I'd say, sadly no.......no , you haven't experienced the same thing. :shrug:

No, there wouldn't. Because he'd do it on live television and in front of witnesses. Lots of witnesses. And skeptical people would see it. Credible, trustworthy people would see it. Not just whoever happened to be at a wedding with him, and major newspapers and tv networks would chronicle it. There would be reliable evidence.

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No, I think you are wrong here. people, in general, are often just too "rational" and I believe they'd simply rationalize such a thing away, because it would still be just too difficult for them to comprehend and still would be a phenomenon that could not be explained through "rational" thought. Pride simply gets in the way and we simply cannot accept that there are some things to which we cannot apply human "reason" when seeking justification. :shrug:

Then god is a fool for making us rational creatures. And no, that is not what faith is about. Faith is about trust. It's not about turning off your brain. The medieval church that emphasized faith so much wasn't talking about thinking god exists or not. They all thought god existed. That wasn't a matter of faith. They took it as a given. It was about trusting god. Faith is no more about thinking god exists without evidence than it is about thinking unicorns do.

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May be unwise to label something as "foolish" just because we don't fully understand it. God gave us paradise........and the ability to choose. Man's own choices led to his downfall and to his inevitable separation from God.

BTW, I don't belong to the Medieval church and my faith goes beyond churches or even religion. :shrug:

We're not haters. We just want to know the truth, and don't accept when someone else tells us they know the truth and can't back it up.

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I can accept that you are a non-believer and that your life/existence is ruled by that which is rational, reasonable, and can be proven to you based on empirical evidence. Why can't you accept that I have Faith, and that I require no such evidence in order to be spiritually fulfilled. Who's really being intolerant here? :shrug: