• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

The Rat At 3 AM

It depends on the context, really. Misplaced or inordinate guilt can be very unhealthy because that's usually a symptom of some other problem. It's often a coping mechanism gone awry (see my use of humor in bad situations for another example of a coping mechanism gone awry :lol:).

Guilt does have it's time and place, but it's also something that has to be moved past for real personal growth to occur.

Well, I will ponder on it -- what Captain said really resonated with me; that maybe the guilt is a kind of security blanket for me, so I can feel safe that nothing like it will ever happen to me again.

God knows, it was the worst case of my career.
 
Fair enough. But even the average person seems to think anyone in emotional distress -- no matter how obvious it is they suffered a grievious blow -- should see a therapist. Still crying two weeks after the baby died?

Get thee "fixed".

That 'tude annoys me. I say such people are fine and don't need "fixing".

Therapy =/= fixing. I can't stress that enough.

Any decent therapist will help someone who is dealing with such phenomenal grief, not because they try to fix the person, but because they don't try to fix them. They will be there to support the person while they process their grief, instead of seeking out ways to get the person to stop grieving. (Which is what well-meaning friends often do, without knowing any better or even realizing it.)
 
Therapy =/= fixing. I can't stress that enough.

Any decent therapist will help someone who is dealing with such phenomenal grief, not because they try to fix the person, but because they don't try to fix them. They will be there to support the person while they process their grief, instead of seeking out ways to get the person to stop grieving. (Which is what well-meaning friends often do, without knowing any better or even realizing it.)

I'm sorry; I did not mean they (therapists) see a person in distress as "broken". I meant too many average people in our society cannot tolerate signs of distress in themselves or others. Apparently, it makes them anxious as hell.

When I was young, a new widow wasn't expected to be in public much for a year; other people did her grocery shopping, etc. There was a community-level acknowledgement that it was okay for her not to functioning like everyone else for a long time. But now? I think the friends and family start urging the bereaved to "get that looked after" after a few weeks.
 
I have forgiven myself to a degree, in that I really believe I could not have done better under the circumstances as they were at that time. Another person could have, I could have and did, later on in my career, but this was almost my first case (approving the scheme, I mean; by the time I was chasing this evil man, I was well along in my education about the vile things some wealthy people are capable of doing for more money). It's impossible for me to say I'm innocent, I did my best. Obviously, even with all my deficits I could have done better -- but I was even then moral and vigorous almost all the time in my professional life. I just wasn't some sort of genius that can see evil in other people at 100 paces, and I wasn't paying the closest attention I could have.

But does any of that mean I am unhealthy ever to awake at 3 am, thinking of the murder victim's family, or wondering how old those paralyzed kids are now? I kinda think it would be unhealthy to forget them completely -- but I am not sure what value my raking it over once or twice a year has to me or anyone else.

Most of you seem to think I have some sort of guilt-induced illness. But is guilt like this unhealthy?
that excerpt in your post appears contradictory
if you actually did your best, then forgive yourself because no one can expect any better than a best effort
but if you could - and should - have done more, then you facilitated the insurance fraud (but not the murder) and have earned the right to this guilt
 
Fair enough. But even the average person seems to think anyone in emotional distress -- no matter how obvious it is they suffered a grievious blow -- should see a therapist. Still crying two weeks after the baby died?

Get thee "fixed".

That 'tude annoys me. I say such people are fine and don't need "fixing". (They obviously need compassion and support, though -- and these days, some people have to pay to get it, because their families and friends are too uncomfortable with signs of distress to provide it.)

I believe that is a normal grieving response, and should be not only expected, but used in order to internalize the loss. What I was referring to in my previous posts is guilt, not loss. Guilt, if left unchecked, and permitted to get to the pathological stage, is a soul-killer, and eats you from the inside. Guilt and remorse is appropriate and natural in the human who has a conscience, but some people can't look at the past as a learning experience, and more or less get stuck in the emotional pain, and obsess on it, without putting it into perspective.

This is just anecdotal, but when my dad was diagnosed with a primary brain tumor, it was my dad I was worried about having some mental and emotional issues, but it was my mom who actually did. About a month into his illness, my mom called me one morning, and asked me to come over to see her. I could tell she was feeling distressed, so I drove over there, and when I looked at her, I could see the deer in the headlights look on her face, and I recognized it immediately, as her face portrayed the same emotional state I had dealt with off and on for years. My sister took her to the doctor, while I stayed there with Dad. The doc put her on an antidepressant and some Xanax to help her sleep at night, which she really didn't want to take, but did so at our suggestion, because she couldn't go on that way. I had always viewed my mom as a very strong and stoic woman, and this experience taught me that everyone has their breaking point at which emotional stress can overtake their normal functioning. Fast forward a couple of monts- after Dad died, I was worried that she would further decline, and since that time, I've gone to spend the day with her every two weeks, and we do our mom and daughter thing, because I wanted to make sure she was coping okay, and because I love her so. She insisted on getting off the antidepressant, and she tapered off, then she stopped the Xanax as well, and for nearly a year, she has done remarkably well, and is active and living a nice life. She has been able to keep per emotional pain in perspective by letting herself be vulnerable to it, talking about it, and feeling it, rather than analyzing it in an intellectual manner, and trying to separate herself from it. I believe this is a part of dealing effectively with the things that shake us deeply, whether it be guilt, grief, loss, or any other emotional trauma.
 

Okay, here's what I did: I was careless and foolish, and played a big role in allowing a predator into a business sector I was a frontline regulator for. It was liability insurance for school sports programs, and when the schools had filed enough claims, the business evaporated and left people in the most dire straits. There were dozens of kids made quadreplic from breaking their necks in football or swimming, and so on. The insurance should have paid for their care for their entire lives and that promise was totally and completely broken. This was a deliberate fraud and took all of 18 months to complete, and made the fraudster a multi-millionaire.

Anyway, after the collapse of this business, I hunted the fraudster who had designed it and profited from it. I wasn't alone in my hunt, and I wasn't the most talented member of the team chasing him, but I was probably the most determined. I was the one who not only wanted the money, so we could pay at least part of what the injured kids were owed, I wanted the fraudster to go to prison.

There should have been enough "reserves" on hand for the claims to have been satisfied. That is not the responsibility of one person to determine or control, but, through state agencies, with a checks and balances system in place. Even if you were the last person in the chain of command, there should have others subordinates or those of equal power and/or responsibility who would have to conduct their due diligence and thereafter periodic reports monthly or quarterly to determine the amount available to cover claims. There may have been also other avenues the claimants would have at their disposal to have their injuries covered and if the state was at fault then pursue this with the state.

I do not it could be determined that any one person can with any degree of certainty would be at fault.
 
Could I? No, probably not, knowing myself.

This is not to imply in any way thought I think you ought to feel this guilt. I am simply answering that I probably would as well, whether that's valid or not.

I'm told on an annoyingly regular basis that I'm too hard myself. And as has been the case with you here, people often mistake that for me living with self-loathing or depression, but it isn't either of those things.

I don't feel like I'm here to just be comfortable. I don't see the point of living life with the goal of being comfortable. I'd rather being purposeful, and a positive contributer.

Sometimes that leads me to set an extremely high bar for myself (as you seem to have done here). But, well, my goal isn't to be comfortable. It's to leave the world better than I found it. Maybe my bar is high, and maybe I can't be held responsible for all the things I hold myself responsible for, but I am none the less a part of the equation. Maybe - if I were in your situation - nothing would have been different even if I had done everything right. That's a real possibility. But you can't know until you get there.

I make friends with the rats. I don't mind when they show up, because it serves to remind me, as dawn breaks, that today is a new day where I can do better.

So, no, I would never forgive myself, but I would feel at peace with that.
 
Last edited:
Don't you think those of us who unwittingly enable the evil-doers of this world through vanity or some other veniality deserve and benefit in some way from guilt after it happens?

Only the spoiled benefit from vanity and claiming remorse after doing something bad. It's like playing coy.

There are many naive, unfortunate, non-elites who enable evil-doers and get totally exploited. Their only "benefit" is being able to claim they "paid their dues".

Nobody has "dues" to pay. That's simply something which is intimidated upon us.

The matter of "paying dues" versus "innocent before proven guilty" is an old religious argument as well between Protestants and Catholics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom