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Thoughts on the Soul, Being, and Character

Yes, because biology is working on the dated assumption that consciousness is the direct result of brain function.
That would be your opinion.






Of course, with appropriate hardware / software that mimics what life does naturally, and I don't expect that plant life awareness / consciousness would be much more complicated than that tracking software.
The hardware and software used is not by any stretch of your imagination aware of anything.




I'm not sure that this is the assertion I was making... At least not my intention.

There are a number of theories, but no, the current accepted models do not allow for consciousness to operate beyond the confines of the brain that they are anything other than the result of their brain activity.

Take the OBE, youve shown the parts of the brain that, once stimulated, creates the "sensation" of being out of body... Science cannot explain how two people can have an out of body experience where they both report the same experience in every detail... As verified by a third party.
There has been no verified out of body experiences documented. There have been people making wild claims but none of those are verified that they were actually expierencing something more than a sensation or a dream.



Well, for starters, there is no working theory of everything... And that's what Einstein spent the last 30 years of his life trying to figure out, and has been the goal of physicists for over 60 years now with little progress. The reason why is because at a certain point, physics must collide with discussion of consciousness, and even the physicists of einsteins day felt that this was a philosophical question and not a scientific one.
A theory of everything (ToE) or final theory is a putative theory of theoretical physics that fully explains and links together all known physical phenomena, and predicts the outcome of any experiment that could be carried out in principle.[1]

NOVA | A Theory of Everything?

Big Minds Debate Theory of Everything | Physics, Cosmology & String Theory | LiveScience

The quest for a theory of everything arises because two of the most celebrated, successful theories in physics are contradictory. The theory that describes very big things – general relativity – and the theory that describes very small things – quantum mechanics – each work amazingly well in their own realms, but when combined, break down. They can't both be right.




No, i guarantee that if you went through those experiences, you would have no choice but to accept the reality of the "soul".... You would know the "what is there", even if you, like myself are required to grasp at straws trying to figure out how it works.... Or I suppose it's possible that you would convince yourself that you were hallucinating...
I do not have your bias so perhaps I would see things differently than you?


The only way that you will get the "proof" that you seek is to go through a similar experience to something I went through, and many others...

Hell, you even denied a series of peer-reviewed papers because they contradicted your personal beliefs, so, let's use that as a measure of the level of skepticism you are bringing to the table.
Dont be so dishonest, i did not disprove of your sources because of the reasons that you are forcing on me. I instead discredited your sources for wither being out of context or complete pseudoscience. I like to facts truths not stories made up to convince people of things. You have simply failed to provide any truths.

Remember when I asked you to explain what type of experiment you could design to put the concepts to the test, do you remember what you said??

I don't remember verbatim, but the response was to the effect that these things did not exist and so you could not design a test to find them... Meanwhile the question was to figure out a test that could be used to make that determination.
I see so you believe that I am too closed minded to bother with such things? Why should I be the one to do what you are required to do? I mean these are not my ideas after all they are yours and others. Perhaps you should take the initiative to acquire the information yourself? Why should I do your work for you?

It's ok, I get it, I used to be a skeptic on this subject as well... But when you come face to face the impossible, you have two choices :
1 - deny what you came to face,
2- accept that you were wrong.

There is no proof that would satisfy your skepticism, you've made this clear at this point.
Nothing in this reality is magic, everything has an explanation. Provide an explanation then we may perhaps be able to do something. Until then we only have the word of people making claims. There is only one person in this world right now that I take her word without question, and you are not her. So I need and most people need something real to explain what you claim.
 
That would be your opinion.

I've shown you a few of the more modern theories for consciousness that were compatible with what I was saying...




The hardware and software used is not by any stretch of your imagination aware of anything.

No, it's a simulation of awareness using sensors and computer commands, plants on the other hand are living.




There has been no verified out of body experiences documented. There have been people making wild claims but none of those are verified that they were actually expierencing something more than a sensation or a dream.

I explained the experiments that have been done, try it yourself?

No, the simulated the SENSATION without really checking if it's a real thing...


A theory of everything (ToE) or final theory is a putative theory of theoretical physics that fully explains and links together all known physical phenomena, and predicts the outcome of any experiment that could be carried out in principle.[1]

NOVA | A Theory of Everything?

Big Minds Debate Theory of Everything | Physics, Cosmology & String Theory | LiveScience

The quest for a theory of everything arises because two of the most celebrated, successful theories in physics are contradictory. The theory that describes very big things – general relativity – and the theory that describes very small things – quantum mechanics – each work amazingly well in their own realms, but when combined, break down. They can't both be right.

Actually, there has not yet been any "size barrier" in quantum mechanics that's been found.

The TOE is basically the holy grail of physics, and the whole point is that it must work from the Planck scale to the universal scale. And science isn't much closer to a solution than they were 50 years ago.


I do not have your bias so perhaps I would see things differently than you?

Ya, there would be two choices; either pretend you were hallucinating, or change your world view.

Again, I did not believe these things to be true as a default... The opposite actually, I explained away the first one, the second experience though, I had to rethink that position.

Dont be so dishonest, i did not disprove of your sources because of the reasons that you are forcing on me. I instead discredited your sources for wither being out of context or complete pseudoscience. I like to facts truths not stories made up to convince people of things. You have simply failed to provide any truths.

You called out the integrity of one of the most well respected medical journals, and then said that the scientist involved did acid?? (that doesn't give any bonus points, but on its own doesn't necessarily take anything away either)

I see so you believe that I am too closed minded to bother with such things? Why should I be the one to do what you are required to do? I mean these are not my ideas after all they are yours and others. Perhaps you should take the initiative to acquire the information yourself? Why should I do your work for you?

No, I'm saying you've declared your closed mindedness early on and In multiple ways.


Nothing in this reality is magic, everything has an explanation. Provide an explanation then we may perhaps be able to do something. Until then we only have the word of people making claims. There is only one person in this world right now that I take her word without question, and you are not her. So I need and most people need something real to explain what you claim.

Exactly, I'm not talking about any magic.

I can attempt to explain the principles that are the basis, I've explained that science does not tackle "philosophical" issues, and philosophy is not credible towards science. The issue is that the experimental findings are showing that observation, measurement, and consciousness itself have influence on the results.

I can't explain the intricate workings of a "soul", because before we can talk about any science on the subject, science will have to come to accept that there is a soul which requires study.

That will be an inevitability before there is a working TOE.
 
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I've shown you a few of the more modern theories for consciousness that were compatible with what I was saying...
I am not required to believe them.





No, it's a simulation of awareness using sensors and computer commands, plants on the other hand are living.
I think that you have a different meaning of awareness than the context of this conversation needs. Tracking devices nor plants actually have a goal that they are after. In the case of a tracking device the goal belongs actually to the maker or user of the device. In plants there is a biological necessity to have more or less sun light. The plant does not know this it is a reaction that happens on a physical level through the structure of the plant. The plant moves in relation to physics as they dictate. The plant has nothing to be aware of much less a place to be aware.





I explained the experiments that have been done, try it yourself?
Why should I waste my time? I have simply dismissed the importance of investigating false claims.

No, the simulated the SENSATION without really checking if it's a real thing...
What do you mean?




Actually, there has not yet been any "size barrier" in quantum mechanics that's been found.

The TOE is basically the holy grail of physics, and the whole point is that it must work from the Planck scale to the universal scale. And science isn't much closer to a solution than they were 50 years ago.
The links that I provided define exactly what the theory of everything is about.



Ya, there would be two choices; either pretend you were hallucinating, or change your world view.

Again, I did not believe these things to be true as a default... The opposite actually, I explained away the first one, the second experience though, I had to rethink that position.
Your experiences may actually be unique or not there really is no way to tell since it is just a claim. So the outcome could be something that you did not expect or not. If your experiences were truly unique you may not have the capacity to determine what happened to you. Obviously since you stated that you were previously a skeptic then you searched for an answer from just what is available from your surroundings. You should not stop there or you may never know the truth of what you experienced.



You called out the integrity of one of the most well respected medical journals, and then said that the scientist involved did acid?? (that doesn't give any bonus points, but on its own doesn't necessarily take anything away either)
I am not the only one that has done so. And even if I was the only critic I am still entitled to my skepticism.

It was not that the guy took acid. Personally I am not opposed to drugs nor do I think that once someone takes a drug that they are no longer relevant. But this guy tried to explain an acid trip as something more than hallucinations. Which I find funny. In fact it leads me to believe that he is a nut. The effects of lethargic acid on the brain is well documented and explained beyond any doubt. The fact that this guy does not know that and tried to assert that his trip meant something more than the effects of a drug shows his acceptance of nonscientific method. making him an proven pseudoscientist. And totally worthless as an reference.


No, I'm saying you've declared your closed mindedness early on and In multiple ways.
My not accepting fantasy as reality is not being closed minded at all. But you not accepting proven facts and truths as reality is indeed closed minded.




Exactly, I'm not talking about any magic.
Then prove it is not magic.

I can attempt to explain the principles that are the basis, I've explained that science does not tackle "philosophical" issues, and philosophy is not credible towards science. The issue is that the experimental findings are showing that observation, measurement, and consciousness itself have influence on the results.
i and several other people have already explained to you that you have a misunderstanding of those concepts. Since you are dogmatically still asserting the same now means that this part of the conversation is done.

I can't explain the intricate workings of a "soul", because before we can talk about any science on the subject, science will have to come to accept that there is a soul which requires study.

That will be an inevitability before there is a working TOE.
Science will not accept false claims as reality unless they are proven to be no longer false claims. The people that are making those claims bear the burden to prove that they are not false.
 
I am not required to believe them.

It would do you some good to actually read up on the new scientific theories, especially when we are at the point where we are finding the holes in the old theories.


I think that you have a different meaning of awareness than the context of this conversation needs. Tracking devices nor plants actually have a goal that they are after. In the case of a tracking device the goal belongs actually to the maker or user of the device. In plants there is a biological necessity to have more or less sun light. The plant does not know this it is a reaction that happens on a physical level through the structure of the plant. The plant moves in relation to physics as they dictate. The plant has nothing to be aware of much less a place to be aware.

A simple test watch a plant as it tracks the sun one day, turn it say 80 degrees and then watch it the next day, if it follows the sun and not offset, then that shows that the plant has an awareness of where the ideal energy is being produced and shifts to make efficient use of that energy.

Except plants do need to be aware, they need to know when there is excess of water or shortage, in the case of the fly trap, it senses if digestion is takin place and then opens up. Even the paramecium, it can navigate itself around obstacles, and so on... There is a level of consciousness going on in these things that flies in the face of this model of consciousness as being the result of firing neurons.

Why should I waste my time? I have simply dismissed the importance of investigating false claims.

What do you mean?

That's the point, youve claimed it's all fake, and on the assumption of you being correct you preclude the need for investigation.

What would happen if you, personally, attempted a test, yet to be determined, that would show you that what you claim is false is actually true??




The links that I provided define exactly what the theory of everything is about.

Which again misses the point, I was describing the difficulties of a theory of everything, that transcends the quantum observations while explaining universal phenomenon

Your experiences may actually be unique or not there really is no way to tell since it is just a claim. So the outcome could be something that you did not expect or not. If your experiences were truly unique you may not have the capacity to determine what happened to you. Obviously since you stated that you were previously a skeptic then you searched for an answer from just what is available from your surroundings. You should not stop there or you may never know the truth of what you experienced.

I've been deliberate to not detail those in this thread because at best on its own is anecdotal, and no, the story is not "unique" though, but like I said, it's shown me that there is a "soul" (though I'm sure there's a more appropriate term) that continues on...


I am not the only one that has done so. And even if I was the only critic I am still entitled to my skepticism.

It was not that the guy took acid. Personally I am not opposed to drugs nor do I think that once someone takes a drug that they are no longer relevant. But this guy tried to explain an acid trip as something more than hallucinations. Which I find funny. In fact it leads me to believe that he is a nut. The effects of lethargic acid on the brain is well documented and explained beyond any doubt. The fact that this guy does not know that and tried to assert that his trip meant something more than the effects of a drug shows his acceptance of nonscientific method. making him an proven pseudoscientist. And totally worthless as an reference.


My not accepting fantasy as reality is not being closed minded at all. But you not accepting proven facts and truths as reality is indeed closed minded.

I don't personally have any experience with hallucinogens, and I've known some who have or have not done well mentally from the experiences. That said, some of the stories that come out of high levels of hallucinogens, now, I can't say that if a person on drugs is just a change in brain chemistry, or if they really are communicating with entities... Yes, you can do a brain scan and show what gets triggered and when, but that doesn't necessarily prove or disprove if the experience... Then again, hallucinogens in other peoples hands brought about mk-ultra, which offers more challenges.


Then prove it is not magic.

i and several other people have already explained to you that you have a misunderstanding of those concepts. Since you are dogmatically still asserting the same now means that this part of the conversation is done.

Science will not accept false claims as reality unless they are proven to be no longer false claims. The people that are making those claims bear the burden to prove that they are not false.

Google is your friend... And yes, there have people that have wrongly claimed that I have misunderstood these concepts. Now, I've also recently watched a good portion of a 10 hr lecture by a NASA scientist who has gone through some "paranormal" experience (out of body), and has attempted to study this effect... There's no peer-reviewed paper, just a book an some lectures, but ya, I'm afraid the basic understanding I do have is the red headed stepchild of physics, noone wants to look at it because that's where science and philosophy intertwine.
 
You did your best FFA, it was an admirable attempt to knock over a brick wall.
 
Show your peer-reviewed refutation then.... Oh, and what about the myriad of other papers that have been published on the subject of plant consciousness (small detail like sharing water)?

I recall once my Periwinkles talking to me... :twocents:

It was late afternoon last year in the heat of the summer, I hadn't watered them in weeks [excellent heat tolerant plant] and as I was stretching the water hose out I was thinking to myself that they sure were going to be happy about getting watered finally.

I kid you not, as I started watering them, I started to hear like a clicking sound, and as I bent down closer it was obvious the clicking was coming from them. And as I continued to water more the clicking got a little louder but continued as I watered. I thought that was too cool.

It was coming from the stems, which I am sure has a logical explaination. And fyi "yes" for those inquiry minds but that doesn't alter the truth, but it didn't open my perspective to tell them no thanks were necessary and I was sorry they went without water for that long. :shock:

Any botany experts got an opinion? cool water on hot stems causing some rapid expansion something?
 

I recall once my Periwinkles talking to me... :twocents:

It was late afternoon last year in the heat of the summer, I hadn't watered them in weeks [excellent heat tolerant plant] and as I was stretching the water hose out I was thinking to myself that they sure were going to be happy about getting watered finally.

I kid you not, as I started watering them, I started to hear like a clicking sound, and as I bent down closer it was obvious the clicking was coming from them. And as I continued to water more the clicking got a little louder but continued as I watered. I thought that was too cool.

It was coming from the stems, which I am sure has a logical explaination. And fyi "yes" for those inquiry minds but that doesn't alter the truth, but it didn't open my perspective to tell them no thanks were necessary and I was sorry they went without water for that long. :shock:

Any botany experts got an opinion? cool water on hot stems causing some rapid expansion something?
Perhaps it was bugs?
 
Colossians 1:27


I recall once my Periwinkles talking to me... :twocents:

It was late afternoon last year in the heat of the summer, I hadn't watered them in weeks [excellent heat tolerant plant] and as I was stretching the water hose out I was thinking to myself that they sure were going to be happy about getting watered finally.

I kid you not, as I started watering them, I started to hear like a clicking sound, and as I bent down closer it was obvious the clicking was coming from them. And as I continued to water more the clicking got a little louder but continued as I watered. I thought that was too cool.

It was coming from the stems, which I am sure has a logical explaination. And fyi "yes" for those inquiry minds but that doesn't alter the truth, but it didn't open my perspective to tell them no thanks were necessary and I was sorry they went without water for that long. :shock:

Any botany experts got an opinion? cool water on hot stems causing some rapid expansion something?

I guess I owe a thanks to the Colbert Nation for their segment last night on "clicking" plants. [What's that? send :twocents:]

Which helped find the article about the scientific research which appeared to indicate that plants talk to each other.
See "clicking"

[But if one reads the article be sure to turn up your microphone so you hear what the spirit says].

Anyways, the water knew who I was talking to...
 
I guess I owe a thanks to the Colbert Nation for their segment last night on "clicking" plants. [What's that? send :twocents:]

Which helped find the article about the scientific research which appeared to indicate that plants talk to each other.
See "clicking"

[But if one reads the article be sure to turn up your microphone so you hear what the spirit says].

Anyways, the water knew who I was talking to...

That's the first I had heard about clicking plants, though i had seen something about plants sharing water with neighboring plants...

This does go along with what I was saying about plants having a level of consciousness that goes beyond the "brain power" of the plants.
 
You guys probably do not realize that the scientists are not talking about the same thing that you are talking about. Plant communication is not the same as sentient communication. They are talking more in the realm of non thinking cells communication. Like for example a plant closing its blooms at night. The plant does not think anything like: 'Hey its getting dark I should close my flowers up'. Instead the cells react to conditions on a completely physical level.

And to answer your question AZO no you did not here the same thing that the link reports. The study clearly states that they needed special equipment to hear the clicking that they claimed to hear. So unless you have supernatural hearing then you heard something entirely different.


And no BmanMcfly the study does not prove anything that you have been asserting.


Their findings, published in the leading international journal Trends in Plant Science, conclude that the role of sound in plants has yet to be fully explored, "leaving serious gaps our current understanding of the sensory and communicatory complexity of these organisms".

In addition to other forms of sensory response, "it is very likely that some form of sensitivity to sound and vibrations also plays an important role in the life of plants".

Talking plants | University News : University News : The University of Western Australia

Nowhere do they even fantasize about a plant having a soul or even intelligence of any level. They do talk about plants communicating but as I said not the way I sure that you are assuming.

For a better understanding of what I am telling you read this: The Dynamic Plant Cell Wall - Molecular Cell Biology - NCBI Bookshelf

The story that AZO linked was a little biased to make it appear that the plants were actually talking is was a playful poke at Prince Charles. But the actual study not the stories released that seem to have no understanding of what they are reporting on (showing very poor journalism ethics) makes an intriguing hypothesis. They are proposing that plant cells can communicate (at a cellular level) at a distance not only a distance but in a different organism. But they were not actually speaking in plant language by any stretch of the imagination. In fact none of the studies even pretend to imply such a thing could happen much less is happening.
 
You guys probably do not realize that the scientists are not talking about the same thing that you are talking about. Plant communication is not the same as sentient communication. They are talking more in the realm of non thinking cells communication. Like for example a plant closing its blooms at night. The plant does not think anything like: 'Hey its getting dark I should close my flowers up'. Instead the cells react to conditions on a completely physical level.

And to answer your question AZO no you did not here the same thing that the link reports. The study clearly states that they needed special equipment to hear the clicking that they claimed to hear. So unless you have supernatural hearing then you heard something entirely different.


And no BmanMcfly the study does not prove anything that you have been asserting.


Their findings, published in the leading international journal Trends in Plant Science, conclude that the role of sound in plants has yet to be fully explored, "leaving serious gaps our current understanding of the sensory and communicatory complexity of these organisms".

In addition to other forms of sensory response, "it is very likely that some form of sensitivity to sound and vibrations also plays an important role in the life of plants".

Talking plants | University News : University News : The University of Western Australia

Nowhere do they even fantasize about a plant having a soul or even intelligence of any level. They do talk about plants communicating but as I said not the way I sure that you are assuming.

For a better understanding of what I am telling you read this: The Dynamic Plant Cell Wall - Molecular Cell Biology - NCBI Bookshelf

The story that AZO linked was a little biased to make it appear that the plants were actually talking is was a playful poke at Prince Charles. But the actual study not the stories released that seem to have no understanding of what they are reporting on (showing very poor journalism ethics) makes an intriguing hypothesis. They are proposing that plant cells can communicate (at a cellular level) at a distance not only a distance but in a different organism. But they were not actually speaking in plant language by any stretch of the imagination. In fact none of the studies even pretend to imply such a thing could happen much less is happening.

I'm saying consciousness that is beyond the capacity allowed by the current accepted models... I'm not saying that they have high intelligence or anything remotely like that... And I was careful in my wording, I've never even heard of this "clicking", but that goes along with other papers that had showed a sharing of water through the roots when a neighbor was dry but water was present... But that was only if the roots were close enough to each other.

Plants communicating alone is pretty much proof of consciousness, even if it's through emitted chemicals or something much simpler than people 100 years ago that came up with that theory had considered as "counting"...

Its a matter of inevitability that physics needs to explore the workings of consciousness. However, you can't get an objective view when you are the subject... And like discussed before, consciousness is not the "result" of brain activity, but more like our "consciousness" "controls" brain activity (or chemical processes of inter-cellular communication.)

This model may not be perfect, but it goes alot further in explaining consciousness as a whole.
 
I'm saying consciousness that is beyond the capacity allowed by the current accepted models... I'm not saying that they have high intelligence or anything remotely like that... And I was careful in my wording, I've never even heard of this "clicking", but that goes along with other papers that had showed a sharing of water through the roots when a neighbor was dry but water was present... But that was only if the roots were close enough to each other.

Plants communicating alone is pretty much proof of consciousness, even if it's through emitted chemicals or something much simpler than people 100 years ago that came up with that theory had considered as "counting"...

Its a matter of inevitability that physics needs to explore the workings of consciousness. However, you can't get an objective view when you are the subject... And like discussed before, consciousness is not the "result" of brain activity, but more like our "consciousness" "controls" brain activity (or chemical processes of inter-cellular communication.)

This model may not be perfect, but it goes alot further in explaining consciousness as a whole.

Plant neurobiology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The ideas behind plant neurobiology were criticised in a 2007 article[1] published in Trends in Plant Science by Amedeo Alpi and 35 other scientists, including such eminent plant biologists as Gerd Jürgens, Ben Scheres and Chris Sommerville. The breadth of fields of plant science represented by these researchers reflects the fact that the vast majority of the plant science research community reject plant neurobiology. Their main arguments are that[1]:

"Plant neurobiology does not add to our understanding of plant physiology, plant cell biology or signaling".

"There is no evidence for structures such as neurons, synapses or a brain in plants".

The common occurrence of plasmodesmata in plants which "poses a problem for signaling from an electrophysiological point of view" since extensive electrical coupling would preclude the need for any cell-to-cell transport of a ‘neurotransmitter-like’ compounds.
The authors call for an end to "superficial analogies and questionable extrapolations" if the concept of "plant neurobiology" is to benefit the research community.[1]
There were several responses to the criticism clarifying that the term "plant neurobiology" is a metaphor and metaphors have proved useful on several previous occasions.





Trends in Plant Science - Plant neurobiology: no brain, no gain?

So, are we better informed scientifically about these unknowns, or better guided towards their resolution, by the plant neurobiology concept? Plant cells do share features in common with all biological cells, including neurons. To name just a few: plant cells show action potentials, their membranes harbor voltage-gated ion channels, and there is evidence of neurotransmitter-like substances. Equally, in a broader sense, signal transduction and transmission over distance is a property of plants and animals. Although at the molecular level the same general principles apply and some important parallels can be drawn between the two major organismal groups, this does not imply a priori that comparable structures for signal propagation exist at the cellular, tissue and organ levels. A careful analysis of our current knowledge of plant and animal physiology, cell biology and signaling provides no evidence of such structures.

New concepts and fields of research develop from the synthesis of creative thinking and cautious scientific analysis. True success is measured by the ability to foster new experimental approaches that are founded on the solid grounding of previous studies. What long-term scientific benefits will the plant science research community gain from the concept of ‘plant neurobiology’? We suggest these will be limited until plant neurobiology is no longer founded on superficial analogies and questionable extrapolations. We recognize the importance of a vigorous and healthy dialog and accept that, as a catch-phrase, ‘plant neurobiology’ has served a purpose as an initial forum for discussions on the mechanisms involved in plant signaling. We now urge the proponents of plant neurobiology to reevaluate critically the concept and to develop an intellectually rigorous foundation for it.


Now you need to criticize this list of plant biologists. BTW they are the top of the field in plant biology so good luck arguing their case.

Amedeo Alpi1, Nikolaus Amrhein2, Adam Bertl3, Michael R. Blatt4, Eduardo Blumwald5, Felice Cervone6, Jack Dainty7, Maria Ida De Michelis8, Emanuel Epstein9, Arthur W. Galston10, Mary Helen M. Goldsmith10, Chris Hawes11, Rüdiger Hell12, Alistair Hetherington13, Herman Hofte14, Gerd Juergens15, Chris J. Leaver16, Anna Moroni17, Angus Murphy18, Karl Oparka19, Pierdomenico Perata20, Hartmut Quader21, Thomas Rausch12, Christophe Ritzenthaler22, Alberto Rivetta23, David G. Robinson24, , Dale Sanders25, Ben Scheres26, Karin Schumacher27, Hervé Sentenac28, Clifford L. Slayman23, Carlo Soave29, Chris Somerville30, Lincoln Taiz31, Gerhard Thiel32 and Richard Wagner33
 
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Plant neurobiology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The ideas behind plant neurobiology were criticised in a 2007 article[1] published in Trends in Plant Science by Amedeo Alpi and 35 other scientists, including such eminent plant biologists as Gerd Jürgens, Ben Scheres and Chris Sommerville. The breadth of fields of plant science represented by these researchers reflects the fact that the vast majority of the plant science research community reject plant neurobiology. Their main arguments are that[1]:

"Plant neurobiology does not add to our understanding of plant physiology, plant cell biology or signaling".

"There is no evidence for structures such as neurons, synapses or a brain in plants".

The common occurrence of plasmodesmata in plants which "poses a problem for signaling from an electrophysiological point of view" since extensive electrical coupling would preclude the need for any cell-to-cell transport of a ‘neurotransmitter-like’ compounds.
The authors call for an end to "superficial analogies and questionable extrapolations" if the concept of "plant neurobiology" is to benefit the research community.[1]
There were several responses to the criticism clarifying that the term "plant neurobiology" is a metaphor and metaphors have proved useful on several previous occasions.





Trends in Plant Science - Plant neurobiology: no brain, no gain?

So, are we better informed scientifically about these unknowns, or better guided towards their resolution, by the plant neurobiology concept? Plant cells do share features in common with all biological cells, including neurons. To name just a few: plant cells show action potentials, their membranes harbor voltage-gated ion channels, and there is evidence of neurotransmitter-like substances. Equally, in a broader sense, signal transduction and transmission over distance is a property of plants and animals. Although at the molecular level the same general principles apply and some important parallels can be drawn between the two major organismal groups, this does not imply a priori that comparable structures for signal propagation exist at the cellular, tissue and organ levels. A careful analysis of our current knowledge of plant and animal physiology, cell biology and signaling provides no evidence of such structures.

New concepts and fields of research develop from the synthesis of creative thinking and cautious scientific analysis. True success is measured by the ability to foster new experimental approaches that are founded on the solid grounding of previous studies. What long-term scientific benefits will the plant science research community gain from the concept of ‘plant neurobiology’? We suggest these will be limited until plant neurobiology is no longer founded on superficial analogies and questionable extrapolations. We recognize the importance of a vigorous and healthy dialog and accept that, as a catch-phrase, ‘plant neurobiology’ has served a purpose as an initial forum for discussions on the mechanisms involved in plant signaling. We now urge the proponents of plant neurobiology to reevaluate critically the concept and to develop an intellectually rigorous foundation for it.


Now you need to criticize this list of plant biologists. BTW they are the top of the field in plant biology so good luck arguing their case.

Amedeo Alpi1, Nikolaus Amrhein2, Adam Bertl3, Michael R. Blatt4, Eduardo Blumwald5, Felice Cervone6, Jack Dainty7, Maria Ida De Michelis8, Emanuel Epstein9, Arthur W. Galston10, Mary Helen M. Goldsmith10, Chris Hawes11, Rüdiger Hell12, Alistair Hetherington13, Herman Hofte14, Gerd Juergens15, Chris J. Leaver16, Anna Moroni17, Angus Murphy18, Karl Oparka19, Pierdomenico Perata20, Hartmut Quader21, Thomas Rausch12, Christophe Ritzenthaler22, Alberto Rivetta23, David G. Robinson24, , Dale Sanders25, Ben Scheres26, Karin Schumacher27, Hervé Sentenac28, Clifford L. Slayman23, Carlo Soave29, Chris Somerville30, Lincoln Taiz31, Gerhard Thiel32 and Richard Wagner33

Argue their case... This was a long spiel answering the wrong questions.

I never said that plants had brains, I was saying that plants have a level of consciousness...

And this whole argument is "well, they have structures and functions similar to those of a brain... But they don't have a brain so there's nothing more to see there."

However, there is no science that has fully explained consciousness... Not in any scientific sense... It is not possible to objectively quantify consciousness when it's the a subjective problem.

Also, I wasn't making an argument as to HOW this works, merely that this is how it is.

That said, you can no longer deny plant consciousness after this. So, you've pushed yourself half a step in the right direction.
 
Bman you have an amazing capacity to be presented with an astounding amount of evidence, then say "That isn't what I was saying" or some variant of that and then repeating your assertion. You use words like 'consciousness' to obviate any argument, because you refuse to accept scientific and mainstream definitions of what that word is, and furthermore our scientific understanding of it is. Plant consciousness is an excellent example. Obviously you didn't mean that you thought plant's had not sentient and purely reactive 'consciousness' which is the evidence that FFA has put in front of you. But now that the evidence is at your feet you wave it away by saying 'See I told you they had consciousness' it is mindbogglingly dishonest.
 
Bman you have an amazing capacity to be presented with an astounding amount of evidence, then say "That isn't what I was saying" or some variant of that and then repeating your assertion. You use words like 'consciousness' to obviate any argument, because you refuse to accept scientific and mainstream definitions of what that word is, and furthermore our scientific understanding of it is. Plant consciousness is an excellent example. Obviously you didn't mean that you thought plant's had not sentient and purely reactive 'consciousness' which is the evidence that FFA has put in front of you. But now that the evidence is at your feet you wave it away by saying 'See I told you they had consciousness' it is mindbogglingly dishonest.

I was pointing out that the source was addressing plants "brain power", and as I've said many times "brain power != consciousness" since even the paramecium demonstrates a level of awareness.

Science does NOT have a full definition of consciousness... The closest it has is a model for consciousness that is quite human / animal centric.

Not my fault he chose to answer the wrong question...

Perhaps we should take a step back and agree on what consciousness IS first... Because its clear we're operating on different definitions.
 
I was pointing out that the source was addressing plants "brain power", and as I've said many times "brain power != consciousness" since even the paramecium demonstrates a level of awareness.

Science does NOT have a full definition of consciousness... The closest it has is a model for consciousness that is quite human / animal centric.

Not my fault he chose to answer the wrong question...

Perhaps we should take a step back and agree on what consciousness IS first... Because its clear we're operating on different definitions.

Perhaps you do not understand the word awareness either as used in the context of this conversation?
 
Perhaps you do not understand the word awareness either as used in the context of this conversation?

Really?!? You're going into attack mode because I was suggesting that it would be prudent to be using the same definitions for these terms???

This response was less than useless... Try again.
 
Really?!? You're going into attack mode because I was suggesting that it would be prudent to be using the same definitions for these terms???

This response was less than useless... Try again.
Lol that was not an attack silly. But lets hear your definitions for awareness and Consciousness.?
 
I was pointing out that the source was addressing plants "brain power", and as I've said many times "brain power != consciousness" since even the paramecium demonstrates a level of awareness.

Science does NOT have a full definition of consciousness... The closest it has is a model for consciousness that is quite human / animal centric.

Not my fault he chose to answer the wrong question...

Perhaps we should take a step back and agree on what consciousness IS first... Because its clear we're operating on different definitions.

I'm stupefied. How on earth does a unicellular cilia have awareness? You conflate consciousness with natural and chemical reactivity. Furthermore of course our definitions are human and animal centric, are you not aware of what sentience, consciousness, awareness, all of these words refer to? You are being willfully deceptive and obfuscatory.
 
I'm stupefied. How on earth does a unicellular cilia have awareness? You conflate consciousness with natural and chemical reactivity. Furthermore of course our definitions are human and animal centric, are you not aware of what sentience, consciousness, awareness, all of these words refer to? You are being willfully deceptive and obfuscatory.

I see we are good at answering a question with a question, that goes for both of you...

Look at the paramecium, it can swim around, can move around obstacles (in a very simplistic back up, pivot and try again, as part of a search for food). That to me is a level of conscious awareness..... If you're moving forward, and you hit an obstacle, it takes awareness to be able to understand that you've hit an obstacle.I'm not saying its complex, I'm saying it's conscious.

Finally, look back at an evolutionary scale, the first bacteria that decided it could better for mutual survival with a second bacteria if they would combine and share tasks... Or you think it's just at random a bacteria just stuck to a second one and it survived and beat out the rest?? What about when it went 10x in complexity, 10-20 celled organisms, at this point you start seeing complexity explode, different survival strategies are developed over a billion years.

Example: one strategy was to use some of its cells where they were made to be eaten other species, this way when that animal passes the seed it will sprout and so populate the earth wherever the climate will allow that particular strategy...

Otherwise, at what point does life become "conscious"?

Oh, and here's one last fact from quantum physics : conscious observation "creates" matter... That has been proven experimentally. This means that consciousness must exist PRIOR to the possibility of a universe.., without consciousness there was only a "potential" big bang... Once the universe was initially observed is the point where it began to exist. That's the implication.

Now, how this works.... I don't know, all I know is that this is how it works.

So, consciousness, is not exactly something that relates to being human as much as it relates to being alive.

How it works beyond that?? Well, they've been fighting this for a long time... 65 years since Einstein and his contemporaries started trying to figure out a "theory of everything", and as close as they got they wrote and talked at length about how physics was forced to encounter consciousness... Which they did not understand, and viewed as a philosophical matter. In that 65 years theres been little progress towards that question.

There's a lot more progress in science that can be had in science without colliding with these "philosophical" questions, but it's an inevitability that these questions will have to be looked at...
 
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