Thread: Shock and Awe: A Former Christian Ponders the Cosmos

Originally Posted by Chiefgator

He makes many interesting points and the production is superb.

The editing is very good.

His points are all OK, but he's still stuck on the idea that his feelings are an important determinant for his knowledge. He thinks he has to feel reality in order to comprehend it, which is not true at all.

Human feelings are not a significant factor for awareness or comprehension. He may feel awe in watching a picture of a neighboring galaxy and considering the vast distance between the earth and that far away world, but his feelings are irrelevant to reality. Reality exists independently of humans and their precious feelings.

It's true that feelings are a major factor in religious beliefs. But they don't have to be when considering, examining, and understanding the universe.

Feelings of awe are a natural reaction and are to be expected when getting even a small grasp of the world around us, but that's not the reason to seek logic explanations of the world instead of what religion has to offer.

The reason to dump religion altogether is that it is subjective, emotionally dependent and always false, by definition.

The universe is out there for us to explore and comprehend. We can only do that if we put reality above our emotional expectations.

Originally Posted by VanceMack

You keep missing the point...but I suspect thats intentional. The marvel which you take on faith isnt the specifics of the content of the bucket...its that there is anything at all to be in the bucket...or for that matter...a bucket.

THE reality is that the bucket exists and its contents and me holding the bucket. Faith is that a god exists and created everything. I can see the bucket but I cannot see your god or anything that you claim that your god did, I only see the natural world void of that which you have faith in.

Originally Posted by Paralogic

The editing is very good.

His points are all OK, but he's still stuck on the idea that his feelings are an important determinant for his knowledge. He thinks he has to feel reality in order to comprehend it, which is not true at all.

Human feelings are not a significant factor for awareness or comprehension. He may feel awe in watching a picture of a neighboring galaxy and considering the vast distance between the earth and that far away world, but his feelings are irrelevant to reality. Reality exists independently of humans and their precious feelings.

It's true that feelings are a major factor in religious beliefs. But they don't have to be when considering, examining, and understanding the universe.

Feelings of awe are a natural reaction and are to be expected when getting even a small grasp of the world around us, but that's not the reason to seek logic explanations of the world instead of what religion has to offer.

The reason to dump religion altogether is that it is subjective, emotionally dependent and always false, by definition.

The universe is out there for us to explore and comprehend. We can only do that if we put reality above our emotional expectations.

If most astronomers didn't feel awe while looking at a supernova remnant, if most mathematicians/physicists didn't feel accomplishment or self-satisfaction when solving a particularly difficult problem, if scientists in general didn't stop and watch a sunset once in a while - not to observe first-hand the rotation of the Earth but to simply admire the complex and shifting colors - then I suspect a lot of science would have never been done. Most of us are motivated by emotion, not logic. You may be an exception.

Does that fact add support for a divine entity of some kind? Not in my book it doesn't.

Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll

THE reality is that the bucket exists and its contents and me holding the bucket. Faith is that a god exists and created everything. I can see the bucket but I cannot see your god or anything that you claim that your god did, I only see the natural world void of that which you have faith in.

Nope...you cant fathom that a God created it...cool. You simply take it on faith that it happened by this amazing cosmic accident....first there was nothing...then...the bucket...poof. Something from nothing. Magic.

Faith....its a powerful thing.

Originally Posted by VanceMack

As long as you dont sacrifice 12 year olds and grandmas you can believe in the flying spaghetti monster for all I care.

That is a dodge, and you know it. You weren't asked if you care. You were asked if you would consider it rational. I will take your dodge as conceding that beliefs do in fact require evidence, and that religions don't have any.

Originally Posted by VanceMack

Nope...you cant fathom that a God created it...cool. You simply take it on faith that it happened by this amazing cosmic accident....first there was nothing...then...the bucket...poof. Something from nothing. Magic.

Faith....its a powerful thing.

I've tried that explanation in another form that if you don't know how and what the universe is made of and all that it contains, then you can't possibly deny without a shadow of doubt that there's not a supreme being. All I kept getting back was "show me evidence", "that's irrational" and "unicorns".

Originally Posted by Dezaad

That is a dodge, and you know it. You weren't asked if you care. You were asked if you would consider it rational. I will take your dodge as conceding that beliefs do in fact require evidence, and that religions don't have any.

Its not a dodge. I thionk idiots that think trusting the government to serve their nmeeds are irrational. Your rationality is irrelevant to me. But lets be honest...you were the one that engaged in the dodge. I pointed out, very correctly, that all sides take things on faith and instead of an honest response...yes...we ALL do....simply different things and for different reasons...you brought up a bunch of idiotic examples to 'prove' your point.

I dont CARE what you believe. I dont care HOW you believe provided your beliefs dont cause others harm. You 'believe' in an unproven theory. How pathetic, right? You ignore the factual reality of the existence of all matter by countering with a silly argument...you are like that football player dood in Bill And Teds Excellent adventure...and at the end...all you really have is "San Dimas High School football rules!"

Originally Posted by VanceMack

Nope...you cant fathom that a God created it...cool. You simply take it on faith that it happened by this amazing cosmic accident....first there was nothing...then...the bucket...poof. Something from nothing. Magic.

Faith....its a powerful thing.

You are just trying to project your belief system on me. Personally I find that arrogant. I have no faith in your belief system, so please quit trying to make me believe like you that I need to have faith in how things came to exist. I have no faith in chaos theory, chaos is just chaos nothing to believe in. All I know is that certain conditions developed that resulted as the universe. It is simple deduction not faith.

Originally Posted by grip

I've tried that explanation in another form that if you don't know how and what the universe is made of and all that it contains, then you can't possibly deny without a shadow of doubt that there's not a supreme being. All I kept getting back was "show me evidence", "that's irrational" and "unicorns".

Its all good. Everyone needs SOMETHING to believe in, even if it is a theory that postulates that there was a great and expansive nothing and by nothing it must have been precisely that...NOTHING...because the existence of ANYTHING cannot be explained...and then from that expansive vacuum of nothingness there was a massive ex/implosion, the source, origin, type is unknown as is the cause...but it must have happened...and from that explosion, elemental matter of all types magically appeared...not just enough to fill a bucket but to create billions and billions of planets. And we dont have to explain where it all came from (cuz...we...cant)...its enough that we take it on faith THAT it happened.

The reality is that in a few hundred years, scientists will have answers to many of todays questions that will make much of our current knowledge appear childish. Thats OK...in fact thats a good thing. However what that will mean is that all of those 'believers' today will look pretty stupid.

Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll

You are just trying to project your belief system on me. Personally I find that arrogant. I have no faith in your belief system, so please quit trying to make me believe like you that I need to have faith in how things came to exist. I have no faith in chaos theory, chaos is just chaos nothing to believe in. All I know is that certain conditions developed that resulted as the universe. It is simple deduction not faith.

'Simple' being the key word...and yes...by your very own definition you are taking someone elses work on pure faith. Its OK...its not something to be ashamed of or afraid of. But it doesnt make it any less true.