Thread: Which is more selfish?

Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive

Learn the difference between "smart" and "rational" and you might have a point. Until then, all you've got is ignorance.

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Originally Posted by NoC_T

But then no two individuals will react to stress in quite the same way. Nor shall they possess the same skills or experience to cope. Take children for example. They have not the safety net we would ordinarily attribute to an adult.


Uhm, I believe I made it clear that intelligence is moot, actually?


Then an otherwise highly intelligent individual might make such a choice, correct?

If it was a moment of anything, then it was desperation or stress.

People make stupid decisions even when they are highly intelligent. That stupid decision does not make them over all unintelligent. But when it comes to suicide that one stupid decision marks you for eternity as the person that made a stupid decision and killed them self.

If I hit my hand with a hammer for a stupid reason, it was a stupid action. If I hit my hand with a hammer for a good reason it was not necessarily stupid.

But are you trying to say that suicide in general is not stupid? Lets forget about the mentally ill and rational suicide and the rest of the people that are unable to make a decision for whatever reason. The rest of those people who commit suicide that do not fit into those other categories are not making an smart decision. I mean the majority of people try hard to not get hurt much less die. Plan and simple killing your self when there were other options (and there are always other options) is stupid.

Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll

People make stupid decisions even when they are highly intelligent. That stupid decision does not make them over all unintelligent. But when it comes to suicide that one stupid decision marks you for eternity as the person that made a stupid decision and killed them self.

Then you're probably using the wrong term, since you admit that an otherwise intelligent individual might commit suicide. If not, you'd have to explain the unaccounted and sudden drop in intelligence. My own position is that stress would be the ultimate factor. Not cognitive capacity.

If I hit my hand with a hammer for a stupid reason, it was a stupid action. If I hit my hand with a hammer for a good reason it was not necessarily stupid.

That doesn't fit. Suicide is intentional, and requires only one attempt.

But are you trying to say that suicide in general is not stupid? Lets forget about the mentally ill and rational suicide and the rest of the people that are unable to make a decision for whatever reason. The rest of those people who commit suicide that do not fit into those other categories are not making an smart decision. I mean the majority of people try hard to not get hurt much less die. Plan and simple killing your self when there were other options (and there are always other options) is stupid.

Why must we forget the mentally ill? I've already said that I believe a suicidal mentality is an unstable one. And aside from self sacrifice, I don't believe there ever were any instances of rational suicide. And 'the majority of people' aren't suicidal, so they're ill-suited as a baseline. Whatever alternative options were open to those individuals is immaterial, since, in their instability, they elected not to take them; unstable as they were. You cannot compare the capacity of a healthy mentality to process information, with that of a suicidal mentality.

Originally Posted by NoC_T

Then you're probably using the wrong term, since you admit that an otherwise intelligent individual might commit suicide. If not, you'd have to explain the unaccounted and sudden drop in intelligence. My own position is that stress would be the ultimate factor. Not cognitive capacity.


That doesn't fit. Suicide is intentional, and requires only one attempt.


Why must we forget the mentally ill? I've already said that I believe a suicidal mentality is an unstable one. And aside from self sacrifice, I don't believe there ever were any instances of rational suicide. And 'the majority of people' aren't suicidal, so they're ill-suited as a baseline. Whatever alternative options were open to those individuals is immaterial, since, in their instability, they elected not to take them; unstable as they were. You cannot compare the capacity of a healthy mentality to process information, with that of a suicidal mentality.

Have you not known people that do stupid things on a whim? I think what you are missing here is that not everyone thinks like you. People do stupid things and believe that they are being rational. If only irrational unstable people committed suicide which I agree from my point of view is irrational behavioral. But that is because I would not kill myself. Other people have less of an hang up about dying. That does not make them have a suicidal mentality. It means that they dont really give a ****. If their mind works then they are responsible for their actions. And if that action was blowing their brains out it was stupid of them to do it.

IMO murder is not rational. Yet we hold every murderer responsible for their actions. We do not say that they we being irrational as if they had no responsibility in their actions. Suicide is the same except has I stated in the cases that the person is incapable of making a rational decision. Even a terminally ill person that chooses suicide as a relief to their suffering has made the decision them self. If that person is in great pain and will die soon anyways, they are only speeding up the process and that can be a rational decision. But if a person that Is going to die in 30 years and has no pain or discomfort chooses suicide that would be stupid.

Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll

Have you not known people that do stupid things on a whim? I think what you are missing here is that not everyone thinks like you. People do stupid things and believe that they are being rational. If only irrational unstable people committed suicide which I agree from my point of view is irrational behavioral. But that is because I would not kill myself. Other people have less of an hang up about dying. That does not make them have a suicidal mentality. It means that they dont really give a ****. If their mind works then they are responsible for their actions. And if that action was blowing their brains out it was stupid of them to do it.

The bolded shows me that you really don't have a grasp of the truly depressed individual, and what is going on inside his/her mind. You can confidently say that you would not kill yourself. At a point in the past, I would have said the same thing. This was before I experienced serious clinical depression, not once, but several times over a 12-year period.
There are a few rational people who do kill themselves, and it seems to usually be with purpose and rational intention. For the majority of suicide cases, I doubt that there is any semblance of rational thought happening.

Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll

But if a person that Is going to die in 30 years and has no pain or discomfort chooses suicide that would be stupid.

How can you make that statement without knowing the details about the individual in question?

Originally Posted by lizzie

The bolded shows me that you really don't have a grasp of the truly depressed individual, and what is going on inside his/her mind. You can confidently say that you would not kill yourself. At a point in the past, I would have said the same thing. This was before I experienced serious clinical depression, not once, but several times over a 12-year period.
There are a few rational people who do kill themselves, and it seems to usually be with purpose and rational intention. For the majority of suicide cases, I doubt that there is any semblance of rational thought happening.

I did not state that I was talking about a majority at all. Neither did I even suggest a percentage or offer an percentage. I did state that that some people kill themselves because of some stupid reason in the grand scheme of things.

How can you make that statement without knowing the details about the individual in question?

You might want to think of the contradictory nature of your assertions. You cant possibly know anything about what I have personally experienced. And this conversation does not need me going into my personal life, for me to gain credibility.
Perhaps I know more about the subject than you? Can we leave it at I do have a clue?

But I did sate earlier that my uncle (in this very house that I own) killed himself and that I have had several friends kill them self. I have also talked out several other friends from killing them self. When these people look back at their attempted suicides they have come to the conclusion that they were acting stupid. Maybe someday you will realize that as well. I realize that clinical depression is serious and for the most part uncontrollable. It takes great will power to overcome it (trust me I know). But still suicide as an solution is not the brightest solution. There really is no excuse for suicide unless the person has no grasp of reality or is terminally ill but even then suicide is not the only option for the latter. My Dad for one tried till his body could no longer work. Look up HITT syndrome. He faced and endured incredible pain and suffering yet he did not give up. He was definitely depressed (he had no fingers or toes left, his legs and arms were dying, he went into surgery to remove dead intestine with a 5% chance of recovery) He told me before going in for surgery that he was going to beat this and went to point out the disease and his depression. It turned out there was not enough intestine left alive. While I put my hand on his shoulder and watched his eyes he died. that was in 2007. Last year I held my Moms hand as she died. So please do not pretend that you are the only person that understands depression or suicide. That on top of my uncle and very very good friend committing suicide I would say that I have a clue what I am talking about.

To make it clear my point is that suicide is not a viable option for the majority of people. Of course it is their own lives and they will do what they please. If you guys feel that suicide is not stupid then more power to you, have at it prove me wrong kill your self I really do not care its your life. Why wait? I mean if you feel that you can make a decision whats stopping you? Perhaps it would be a stupid thing to do?

Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll

You might want to think of the contradictory nature of your assertions. You cant possibly know anything about what I have personally experienced. And this conversation does not need me going into my personal life, for me to gain credibility.
Perhaps I know more about the subject than you? Can we leave it at I do have a clue?

Where did I imply the bolded?

Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll

There really is no excuse for suicide unless the person has no grasp of reality or is terminally ill but even then suicide is not the only option for the latter.

Who says they need an excuse at all? We're not discussing a point of excusing anything at all. We're discussing whether or not the act of suicide is selfish, and in which circumstances. My assertion is that it really isn't selfish in either.

Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll

So please do not pretend that you are the only person that understands depression or suicide. That on top of my uncle and very very good friend committing suicide I would say that I have a clue what I am talking about.

Where did I pretend this, and how have you determined this to be the case? Until you have personally been in the shoes of the one contemplating suicide, you are speaking from outside the box.

Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll

You might want to think of the contradictory nature of your assertions. You cant possibly know anything about what I have personally experienced. And this conversation does not need me going into my personal life, for me to gain credibility.
Perhaps I know more about the subject than you? Can we leave it at I do have a clue?

But I did sate earlier that my uncle (in this very house that I own) killed himself and that I have had several friends kill them self. I have also talked out several other friends from killing them self. When these people look back at their attempted suicides they have come to the conclusion that they were acting stupid. Maybe someday you will realize that as well. I realize that clinical depression is serious and for the most part uncontrollable. It takes great will power to overcome it (trust me I know). But still suicide as an solution is not the brightest solution. There really is no excuse for suicide unless the person has no grasp of reality or is terminally ill but even then suicide is not the only option for the latter. My Dad for one tried till his body could no longer work. Look up HITT syndrome. He faced and endured incredible pain and suffering yet he did not give up. He was definitely depressed (he had no fingers or toes left, his legs and arms were dying, he went into surgery to remove dead intestine with a 5% chance of recovery) He told me before going in for surgery that he was going to beat this and went to point out the disease and his depression. It turned out there was not enough intestine left alive. While I put my hand on his shoulder and watched his eyes he died. that was in 2007. Last year I held my Moms hand as she died. So please do not pretend that you are the only person that understands depression or suicide. That on top of my uncle and very very good friend committing suicide I would say that I have a clue what I am talking about.

Thank you for your opinions. For me at least, it's good to get the perspective of one who has been close to suicides without actually being there. Talking about it with personal loved ones would probably just make things worse, so hearing the perspective from your side is informative.

Originally Posted by MoSurveyor

Thank you for your opinions. For me at least, it's good to get the perspective of one who has been close to suicides without actually being there. Talking about it with personal loved ones would probably just make things worse, so hearing the perspective from your side is informative.

Thank you. I hope that it has been clear that I have only offered my opinion on suicide and do not feel that you or anyone else in this conversation is stupid. If it has felt or sounded that way I apologize.